The Irony of Prestige
by tesi15
on Dec 2, 2008 11:16 PM CST
First off thanks for all your previous posts they were very supportive. Now for some football.....
There is always so much hype surrounding the Heisman trophy candidates and yes you do want to see justice served to the best player but the irony in this award is quite ominous. We all know of the unsuccessful nature of those who recieve this prestigious award.
Pretty much no one to my knowledge post college career and Heisman winner has been successful in the NFL within reason. Some good examples are Matt Leinhart (replaced by older Kurt Warner), Reggie Bush (always injured), Carson Palmer (limited good seasons), Ricky Williams (drug-user), Charlie Ward (changed professions), Ty Detmer and OJ (The Glove). Of course there are some rare exceptions such as Roger Staubach and Andre Ware. I am not discrediting any of the above players listed but to make it brief most of the ones who earn this prestigious award dont produce as they should in the NFL.
So I pose a question Should justice be served to Graham Harrell or should we value the politics in college football to supercede where numbers dont lie?
Just check out the stats on voteObrien.org (whoever sent it thank you for the link) Graham Harrell has the best numbers especially his touchdowns and yards. Imagine if he played a full game instead of stepping out when his team was ahead.
Sorry to be so long winded.......lots of love to all
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Double-T Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Double-T Nation's writers or editors.
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Roger Staubach
Your forgetting Roger Staubach. Graham Harrell reminds me of Staubach in a lot of ways.
They even look a lot alike.
Wes Welker can't be stopped.
by 10forTech on Dec 2, 2008 11:38 PM CST 0 recs
I agree that Harrell should win the best QB award (O'Brien, I think), but as for the Heisman...
The Heisman is supposed to decide the MVP. And with a receiver as high profile as Michael Crabtree, the QB can’t be considered the MVP of the team, since that WR does so much (by taking two or more defenders and opening the field to make it easier on the QB). The same goes for Bradford who has so many playmakers around him, he can’t possibly be considered the MVP. Especially since when OU isn’t able to run the ball and Bradford still has a huge day, they can’t win (see Red River Shootout 2008).
Now, as pure MVP, it doesn’t get much better than Colt McCoy. As the QB, he obviously leads the team in passing, but he also leads the team in rushing. UT just doesn’t have the playmakers on offense that TT and OU have. We have a stable of running backs that do what they can with weak run-blocking, possession receivers that do their part, and McCoy. Colt puts the team on his back and carries them through games. He’s their leader and the MVP.
However, voters will probably just vote for the guy with the gaudy stats, even if he has playmakers at all positions around him.
I understand most of you will think that this is a completely biased opinion. I can’t argue that. It’s opinion and it’s supposed to be biased.
by HornPossessed on Dec 2, 2008 11:45 PM CST 0 recs
So you're telling me?...
That Matt Leinart had no talent around him at USC in 2004, or Reggie Bush at USC the following year, or Tim Tebow at FLORIDA last year…and at the same time your saying that Brian Orakpo, Ryan Palmer, Adam Ulatoski, Roy Miller, and Sergio Kindle(all voted all Big12 first team!) are no good?
Graham just had Crabtree, McBath, and Williams voted 1st team all Big12. That’s 5 to 3.
Also, as for second teamers, texas had 6 to Techs 4.
Your argument is full of holes!!
Maybe you should stick with something you are good at, like cryin about the BCS.
by TT4EVER on
Dec 3, 2008 2:25 AM CST
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We're talking about being surrounded by talent on offense, here.
So, Harrell had the dynamic receiver who could do what he wanted after he caught that ball vs. an O-Lineman who didn’t play as good as many thought he would this year (though he was the best of our line). As for 2nd team, Harrell has Woods and two pretty good O-Linemen vs. Colt’s single O-Lineman and Jordan Shipley (who showed flashes of what he is capable of but is more of a possession receiver). Advantage: Harrell.
As for the actual voting, I mentioned in my first post that voters will most likely vote for the guy with the most amazing stats. Tebow was the first ever last year with 20 TD rushing and 20 TD passing. Leinart threw it up to talented receivers (in the NFL now) and pitched it to Reggie Bush who made things happen. But this is an MVP award. Voters are supposed to vote for MVP. Harrell is amazing QB, but Colt is the MVP. But like I said, voters tend not to view it as an MVP award and my original post was merely voicing my displeasure with that.
Also, the All Big XII teams are a joke. Ask me how Javorski Lane made 2nd team all honors. And how did the ‘Lineman of the Year’ only make the 2nd team offense? Bob Stoops as ‘Coach of the Year’ (w/ Mike Leach)? I mean, OU was only picked to win the South easily and they ended up losing to their rivals and backing into the Big XII Championship. CotY is meant for a coach who does the most with the least, not the pedestrian with the most. It should have just been Mike Leach.
Thanks for your opinion on the matter, though.
by HornPossessed on
Dec 3, 2008 3:06 AM CST
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You SHOULD be talking about the team as a whole, cause WINS get you the Heisman Trophy, bottom line...not MVP
Horn—-“So, Harrell had the dynamic receiver who could do what he wanted after he caught that ball vs. an O-Lineman who didn’t play as good as many thought he would this year (though he was the best of our line). As for 2nd team, Harrell has Woods and two pretty good O-Linemen vs. Colt’s single O-Lineman and Jordan Shipley (who showed flashes of what he is capable of but is more of a possession receiver). Advantage: Harrell.”
Winning the Heisman is all about winning football games. And in order to WIN, you have to have DEFENSE, as well as offense(HELLO). If these guys didn’t have any talent on defense, they wouldn’t have a chance at the Heisman, cause they would have more losses.
Horn—-“The Heisman is supposed to decide the MVP. And with a receiver as high profile as Michael Crabtree, the QB can’t be considered the MVP of the team, since that WR does so much (by taking two or more defenders and opening the field to make it easier on the QB). The same goes for Bradford who has so many playmakers around him, he can’t possibly be considered the MVP. Especially since when OU isn’t able to run the ball and Bradford still has a huge day, they can’t win (see Red River Shootout 2008).”
Harrel having Crabtree on his offense has nothing to do with it, other than helping to get wins. And I hope Graham gets the Heisman, but you can’t rule him out because he has too much help. If you could, then Matt Leinart couldn’t have won with Reggie Bush on his team.
Lately, it goes to the QB on the football team that has the most wins. When it’s all said and done, Sam Bradford will have the most wins, thus he will bring home the Heisman. And he is surrounded with talent, having 7 1st teamers on the All Big12 Team. And that’s just on his offense. Oklahoma has 15 all Big12 1st and 2nd teamers, Texas has10, and Tech has 7.
If it was really just an MVP award, then Baylor’s QB would get votes!
In my opinion, you’ve got holes everywhere in your OPINION!
by TT4EVER on
Dec 3, 2008 5:20 PM CST
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You need to read my whole posts...
Specifically, where I mention that it is an award that is supposed to be based on MVP, but voters have changed that around to vote for the most impressive numbers, regardless of whether that player is the Most Valuable Player on that team. This is mainly due to Heisman voters inability to watch every game of every player and so they just check out box scores and the stats. However, stats don’t tell the full story. Harrell is putting up the same numbers he has always put up, but this is the best season Tech has had in the Big XII because they put playmakers at RB around him and an O-Line that can keep any D-Line away from him for days (hold, though they may). If you really think it is all about winning, then how did Tebow win last year? He put up numbers never before seen. The sad fact is, the Heisman is no longer based in MVP and winning, but in stats and impressive looking numbers.
Again, my original post was attempting to voice my displeasure with that. If that didn’t get through, then the explanation was probably poor on my end.
Oh and I agree that somehow Lucky F*ck Bradf*ck will win the Heisman based on his stats. He is not even close to an MVP on that team, but voters will only care about the stats. Harrell is much closer to Tech’s MVP than Bradford is to OU’s.
by HornPossessed on
Dec 3, 2008 6:12 PM CST
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I am a lady at heart but I love the Lucky F*ck Bradf*ck
by tesi15 on
Dec 4, 2008 12:11 AM CST
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Biased
Numbers for votings knocks out the use of passion and favoritism toward a certain player for any reason which allows for no personal connection which creates controversy
by tesi15 on
Dec 3, 2008 11:56 PM CST
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Contribute....
Don’t just act like a child, 10forTech. Man up and move on.
Now back to reasonable debate…
I always thought it would be extremely difficult for a receiver (Crabtree) to win the award because even great receivers can lose touches when a defense is determined. On the other hand, the ball always passes through the QB’s hands. As much as I’d like to see Crabtree garner consideration, if only for his freakish abilities, everyone knows it comes down to the QBs.
While I strongly agree that Colt’s rushing totals bring more attention, I ran some numbers to see exactly how much each QB means to each team’s offense.
McCoy produced 4021 out of 5717 total yards for UT. That accounts for 70% of the offense.
Harrell produced 4689 out of 6434 total yards for Tech (even taking into consideration his negative rushing totals). That accounts for 73% of the offense.
McCoy had 42 TDs combined, which accounts for 48% of the team’s scoring per game (based on a 43.9 pts/game average).
Harrell had 47 TDs combined, which accounts for 53% of the team’s scoring per game (based on a 44.6 pts/game average).
So if you are talking about how the player contributes directly to the team’s offense, Harrell wins out. While Colt was definitely more of a threat to run, that didn’t increase his overall contribution to the team offense and scoring to a level above Harrell.
Let me know if you come up with some other stats to back up McCoy. We’ll definitely lose out on the opinion of many regarding the two QBs but I had a hard time finding stats to back up McCoy’s case.
by TracySaulRulz on
Dec 3, 2008 10:20 AM CST
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Boy
he’s really got you fooled.
Wes Welker can't be stopped.
by 10forTech on
Dec 3, 2008 3:47 PM CST
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Genius
So what major are you…….Numbers to me never allow for ones own discretion……..Love the facts
by tesi15 on
Dec 4, 2008 12:12 AM CST
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MS in Engineering
With a math minor. Yup, big nerd. Loves me some numbers.
by TracySaulRulz on
Dec 4, 2008 8:20 AM CST
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he should have been mvp for last yrs superbowl even though I am partial towards the Giants
by tesi15 on
Dec 3, 2008 11:58 PM CST
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I’ve been troubled by the fact that the Heisman ‘favorite’ seems to be tied to a given team’s success. Tech comes out flat at Norman, and Harrell pays the price for the whole team. Something seems completely wrong about that. He wasn’t the one missing blocks or tackles.
On a side note, I’ve also wondered just how much these fan votes count toward the decision of who should receive these awards. Anyone know? If you look at the maps that ESPN uses, it’s clear that the fan votes are just a result of where the voters live and which schools they support. Considering UT’s tendency to go on the campaign warpath, it’s not hard to imagine a bunch of T-shirt fans deciding the issue.
by TT_ on Dec 2, 2008 11:59 PM CST 0 recs
Andre Ware counts as an exception? That guy's photo is in the dictionary under 'draft bust'
by mojavereject on Dec 3, 2008 1:01 AM CST 0 recs
See that's where your comedic bone is supposed to kick in
posting his name in the same sentence as the great Cowboy hall of famer who owns 2 Superbowl rings.
by Plano Jeff on
Dec 3, 2008 11:13 AM CST
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My mistake
I wrote the name in the wrong spot. When I reread it today I caught my mistake. Thanks for the head up…
by tesi15 on
Dec 3, 2008 11:49 PM CST
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yeah....
Andre ware, right next to Ryan Leaf
Go Tech!!!
by jwhitettu on Dec 3, 2008 9:56 AM CST 0 recs
Sticking up for Andre...
Andre Ware does quite a bit of commentary on Houston radio and TV for NFL and college football. I actually enjoy his perspective as a former player. And he seems to be a really good guy.
But I couldn’t even begin to make an argument he is an exception to the “Heisman doesn’t translate to NFL success” phenomena…
by Houston Raider on
Dec 3, 2008 11:06 AM CST
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Maybe since 1988
“Pretty much no one to my knowledge post college career and Heisman winner has been successful in the NFL within reason.”
Maybe since 1988 you are correct but let me throw 4 names out – Tony Dorsett, Earl Campbell, Herschel Walker, and Barry Sanders. I think they did okay. Billy Sims for another.
However, since Barry Sanders in 1988 I would say only 3 Heisman winners could be considered ‘succesful’ and none of them a QB.
by Dub Parks 88 on Dec 3, 2008 11:01 AM CST 0 recs
Eddie George, Charles Woodson, and Carson Palmer had or are having above average NFL careers.
by jeffinhouston on
Dec 3, 2008 1:42 PM CST
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I did say 3 since '88
EG, CW, and Desmond Howard were the three I was thinking of; jury is still out on Palmer.
by Dub Parks 88 on
Dec 3, 2008 1:56 PM CST
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Sorry I was seven in 1988.....LOL.....But thanks for the add ons
by tesi15 on
Dec 4, 2008 12:05 AM CST
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The only good thing Hershel ever did was bring over great players to the Dallas Cowboys as a result of his trade…….Therefore Hershel Walkers trade does ROCK
by tesi15 on
Dec 4, 2008 12:07 AM CST
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i think that’s what’s great about this award. Someone like Doug Flutie was a great “college player.” But they never gave him a chance in the league because he wasn’t built like Ryan Leaf(Lief?). But all Doug Flutie does is win. Just like Colt McCoy and I hate UT and I hate how Brent Musberger loves Colt’s name, but look at a guy like Colt. All that kid knows how to do is win. It’s a fiber of his being, he’ll fight ,claw and scratch to win, but the NFL probably won’t give him a chance because he doesn’t fit the"mold." Don’t like that example, put Chase Daniel in there.
by Plano Jeff on Dec 3, 2008 11:21 AM CST 0 recs
Harrell = Winner!
What about all the great scoring comebacks from Graham Harrell?
I understand what your saying about Colt McCoy.
But, you have to weigh in on how Graham Harrell compares to Colt McCoy.
As ‘TracySaulRulz’ stated above, Harrell is the clear stats winner.
I also think that he is the best Comeback QB in the country.
Who would I want for my team with 1:30 left on the clock, and 6 points behind?
Harrell over McCoy any day.
Who would I want for my team with 1 qtr left to play, and 21 points behind?
Harrell over McCoy any day.
Do you not think that Harrell will “fight, claw and scratch to win”?
Harrell has proven this time, and time again. Just watch his determination & competitiveness!
————————————-
NFL – Now that is another story, but he’s not there yet.
by Tech Pirate on
Dec 3, 2008 12:05 PM CST
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One more thing...
to consider when debating the merits of Harrell, McCoy and Bradford’s validity as a potential Heisman winner, is recruiting. McCoy and Bradford are surrounded by 4 and 5 star blue chip stud recruits, where as Harrell (he was a 4 star) is surrounded mostly by 2 and 3 star recruits that never even got a look from either UT or OU. Yeah, star ratings are subjective, but come on. Harrell has accomplished much more with much less, in my opinion. It makes the disparity in the stats between the three even larger when you factor that in.
by boombacloud on Dec 3, 2008 12:49 PM CST 0 recs
http://voteobrien.org/
NCAA Football Grad. Rate: Texas Tech 79%, Baylor 78%, Oklahoma State 62%, Texas A&M 56%, Texas 50%, OU 46%
by Tech Pirate on Dec 3, 2008 2:03 PM CST 0 recs
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