Rules knowledge?

by tturef on Dec 22, 2009 9:21 PM CST Comment 43 comments

For fun, let's see how well the Double T Nation knows the rules. I will post a senario and then you can let me know your best guess - I will then come back and give you the interpretation / rule, etc. - Here goes:

What's the call?

Team A punts the ball. Team B's deep receiver, standing on his five-yard line, retreats and catches the kick in his end zone. He fumbles and in attempting to recover the ball, it goes out of bounds behind his own goal line. What is the ruling?

A. Safety, award two points to Team A

B. Touchback, Team B ball first and ten at its own twenty

C. Team A re-kicks from previous spot.

Post the answer you think is right and the reason for your choice.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Double-T Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Double-T Nation's writers or editors.

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My guess

I’m going with safety. He had possession, then fumbled. No different than a punter who fumbles out of bounds.

by TechFirst on Dec 22, 2009 9:25 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I agree with safety

I think it would be different if he merely muffed the punt and never possessed it, but since he possessed it and fumbled it out of the back of the endzone can’t see why that isn’t a safety.

by jeffinhouston on Dec 22, 2009 9:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

+1

" Answers -- Become Resources."
Without Questions; There are limited Resources...

by KWashburn on Dec 22, 2009 9:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Now I’m not so sure after seeing the posts below. Some kinda special kicking rule may override common sense. :-)

by TechFirst on Dec 23, 2009 11:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Possession began in the endzone and ended in the endzone, it’s the same as taking a knee. Touchback.

After all is said and done, more is said than done.

by ayleein on Dec 22, 2009 9:56 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

As long as the ball never left the endzone after he initially touched it, that is.

After all is said and done, more is said than done.

by ayleein on Dec 22, 2009 9:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

touchback

B. ball never left endzone. touchback

by TechRed01 on Dec 22, 2009 10:01 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

the touchback rules only apply on kickoffs it is a safety

by johnlaf13 on Dec 22, 2009 10:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

touchback…in college a punt is a dead ball as soon as it crosses the plane of the goal line, whether it’s touched or not.

by Tech92 on Dec 22, 2009 10:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

live ball

a punt is a LIVE BALL, resulting in a safety. if it was a kickoff it would be a touchback.

by TechRed01 on Dec 22, 2009 10:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Once a punt, which is a live ball, crosses the goal line without first being touched, it is a dead ball.

by Tech92 on Dec 23, 2009 9:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So if the receiver muffs the ball and it’s recovered in the end zone by the kicking team, the recovery means nothing? Once it enters the end zone before it’s touched, there is no such thing as a fumble or muff? No possible danger in mishandling the ball?

I’m picturing a guy fielding the ball at the back line of the end zone. He tries to return the kick and starts up field. He gets clocked just inside the end zone and fumbles. No problem even if it’s recovered or skips out the back?

Maybe I’m still thinking of the rule when I was a kid. If you tried to return the ball and got caught in the end zone, it was a safety. If you took a knee, touchback.

by TechFirst on Dec 23, 2009 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

TechFirst answers

Receiver muffs and Team A recovers then it would be a touchdown for Team A. If the ball enters the endzone and touches the ground w/out being touched it is a touchback. Guy tries to run out of the enzone and is tackled in the endzone then it is still a touchback – it all comes back to what team was reponsible for putting the ball in the endzone – similar to an interception in the endzone – if the player that intercepts the ball in the endzone gets tackled in the endzone the result of the play is a touchback because Team A put the ball in the endzone with the pass.

by tturef on Dec 23, 2009 8:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Partially correct - ball still has to touch the ground, etc. before it becomes dead

by tturef on Dec 23, 2009 8:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Touchback

Because the player never exited the end zone in positive territory, the call is touchback. If Team A had recovered the fumble, they would have been credited a touchdown. Since only Team B touched the ball and it went out of bounds after Team B player fumbled, it becomes a touchback, with Team B getting the ball on their own 20 yard line.

TTpilk

by TTpilk645 on Dec 22, 2009 10:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

TechRed01

You are right about it being a live ball, but as I stated, the Team B player never left the end zone, onto the field of play, so when the ball exited out of the endzone, it became a touchback. Now, if he had caught it on the field of play, then ran into the endzone and fumbled the ball, THEN it would be a safety. But, he caught the ball in the end zone and never left it with the ball. So, touchback.

TTpilk

by TTpilk645 on Dec 22, 2009 10:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Correct - if you aren't an official you need to become one!

by tturef on Dec 23, 2009 8:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreein with this.

If the player was to catch the ball in the endzone, bring it out, and then fumble it back through the endzone, it would be a safety. If the player fumbled it, the other team recovered and then fumbled it out of the endzone, it would be a touchback.

If the player muffed it in the endzone and the other team attempted to recover but pushed it out of the endzone, touchback.

If the player muffed it out of the endzone but the ball was pushed into and out of bounds behind the endzone while the recovery was being attempted, touchback. (muff, possession never changes)

If the player muffs it and the other team recovers and fumbles once they start running with the ball (and sure let’s let it go out of the endzone), it’s the kicking team’s ball at the spot of the muff recovery (since a muffed punt cannot be advanced).

Here’s the one that I’m not sure about:

If the player muffs the ball outside of the endzone and in the melee manages to recover the football inside of the endzone, is it a safety or a touchback?

by kayakyakr on Dec 23, 2009 10:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i agree with tpilk

yeah, I vaguely remember seeing this in a game not that long ago and I thought it was a safety…but was shocked when it was ruled a touchback…

by TT4EVER on Dec 23, 2009 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But correct

If a muff happens, whomever recovers gets the ball where covered. If in the endzone and no one made a recovery until the ball was in the endzone, then the receiving team would get it on the 20, or the kicking team would get a touchdown, as long as the ball was not recoverd and advanced into the endzone from the field of play. BOY! This gets more complicated the more the situation is diagnosed. WHEW!

TTpilk

by TTpilk645 on Dec 23, 2009 12:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Kicks are crazy

In the officiating world, we always say, if something crazy is going to happen odds are it is going to be on a play involving a kick!

by tturef on Dec 23, 2009 8:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Great answer - either you are an official or you need to be!!

by tturef on Dec 23, 2009 8:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Nice Post...brain teaser.

by TT4EVER on Dec 22, 2009 11:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

It is Taylor Potts fault...

he muffed the punt, if Sticks had been in this would not have happened,

VIVA LA FIGA!

by bmaxw on Dec 23, 2009 8:30 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

+1

by TT4EVER on Dec 23, 2009 8:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He was trying to catch it off the same back foot he throws off of I suspect.

by TT4EVER on Dec 23, 2009 8:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I like this post btw tturef, would you mind if i emailed, you, i’m curious bout some stuff.

by kayakyakr on Dec 23, 2009 10:19 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Sure - be glad to visit with you.

by tturef on Dec 23, 2009 7:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

FYI - I added my email address to my profile

by tturef on Dec 24, 2009 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i could hunt it down anyway :-P thanks, i’ll be in touch.

by kayakyakr on Dec 26, 2009 9:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Touchback - Team B gets ball on 20 yard line

"You've got to find your inner pirate" - Mike Leach

by Raider1992 on Dec 23, 2009 11:56 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Touchback

Based on sheer gut feeling :)

by raider87 on Dec 23, 2009 3:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Good gut feeling!

by tturef on Dec 23, 2009 8:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Touchback

He was inside the 5 when he touched the ball was already in the end zone, and it wasn’t the receivers fault that it was in the end zone (he did not catch the ball, run backwards, and then fumble it out of bounds in the end zone)

by NM99 on Dec 23, 2009 5:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Official Answer to the questions

All of those who said B are correct – this is found in Rule 8-6-1-A – the rule reads as follows:

“It is a touchback when: the ball becomes dead out of bounds behind the goal line, except from an incomplete forward pass, or becomes dead in possession of a player on, above or behind his own goal line and the attacking team is reponsible for the ball being there”.

In the situation given, the first item to deal with is how did the ball get into the endzone? In this case, Team A (punting team) was responsible for putting the ball in the endzone with the punt – the ball became dead when it was knocked out of bounds by the receiver when he was trying to recover it, therefore, it was simply a touchback, Team B’s ball 1st & 10 @ the 20.

Let’s address some of the questions / issues brought up by your answers – great job by the way – pretty impressive:

Comment – “No different than a punter who fumbles out of bounds” – key here is the kicking team (team A) is responsible for putting the ball into the endzone, therefore it would be a safety.

Comment – “The touchback rules only apply to the kickoff” – touchback rules apply to all kicks including kickoffs, scrimmage kicks, and field goals / extra points.

Comment – “In college a punt is a dead ball as soon as it crosses the plane of the goal line, whether it’s touched or not” – actually the ball only “becomes dead” if it is untouched by a Team B player and hits the ground, etc. past the goal line – i.e. if Team B touches the ball in the field of play and it rolls into the endzone it is live and Team A can recover it for a touchdown.

I will address some of the other questions directly under the post.

Let me know if you would like to see more of these!

by tturef on Dec 23, 2009 8:20 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I don’t follow…in college if a player from the punting team tries to reach into the endzone, before the ball has hit the ground, and bat the ball back with feet in the field of play outside the endzone, it is always called a touchback. Why?

by Tech92 on Dec 25, 2009 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought it was just a difference in the rules between college and the NFL. College looks at whether the ball has crossed the line, but the pros looks at whether the player has position in the endzone.

by TechFirst on Dec 26, 2009 9:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs