Why Leach is Wrong, Harrell won't make the NFL and the Red Raiders are more than alright
[Note by Seth C, 05/20/09 11:53 AM CDT ] Promoted to the front page earlier this morning. Tremendous work, definitely front page worthy and cannot recommend enough that everyone take the time to read this.
Much has been made about Mike Leach’s comments about the NFL draft process which started with Michael Crabtree’s slight descent in this year’s draft and culminated with his frustrated remarks over Graham Harrell’s non-selection.
Leach’s comments fuelled a war of words with a rival coach, set the blogosphere ablaze and provided Texas Tech’s detractors with an opening to disparage the team’s recent successes, as well as question the quality of its players (never mind that Tech had four players drafted in this year’s NFL class, only one less than Big 12 leader Oklahoma).
Now that the din has subsided somewhat, I wanted to take stock of Coach Leach’s now infamous comments "The truth of the matter is that the NFL drafts quarterbacks notoriously bad. . . that's indisputable."
Could Coach Leach be right? Is the NFL draft process really that indisputably bad?
Not only that, but how could NFL scouts possibly overlook one of the most prolific quarterbacks in NCAA history?
Now that Graham Harrell has suffered the indignity of being undrafted and has thus far failed to make a roster as a free agent, what are his chances of making the NFL?
Finally I wanted to understand whether or not our detractors have a point. Is there something unique about Tech quarterbacks, and its players in general, which makes them seemingly so undraftable?
To better understand these questions and more, I took a look at the current roster of 126 quarterbacks on teams across the league (including this year’s draft picks), and used it as my sample to assess these questions. This selection of players spans 16 years (the league’s current oldest quarterback is Mark Brunell who was selected in the 1993 draft). I also looked back at each draft dating back to 1993 to understand how well draftee quarterbacks over the past 16 years have actually fared. I have confined most of my analysis to the draft years 2000-2009 because so few quarterbacks drafted during the 1990’s remain in the league.
After what turned out to be some pretty time consuming work (significantly more than I had anticipated), I’ve came up with – what I hope are - some pretty interesting explanations.
Let’s start by looking at Coach Leach’s comments.
Is the NFL really that bad at selecting quarterbacks?
Of the 126 quarterbacks drafted since 2000, 79 players (or 63% of all drafted quarterbacks) are still in the league.
This number is probably as a good an indicator as any about the quality of the NFL draft process. Today, 90% of quarterbacks selected from 2005-2009 are still in the league. This seemingly high percentage is inflated by the fact that every one of the current year’s draft picks are on NFL rosters today. Similarly, NFL teams are still nurturing the growth of players selected during its most recent drafts. Many of these same teams have committed to multi-year contracts which are still in effect.
It is interesting, however, to see the dramatic decline in the retention rate of players drafted from 2000 to 2004.
Only 41% of quarterbacks drafted from 2000 to 2003 remain in the league. The relatively poorer showing reflects a combination of factors – primarily that the career of the average NFL quarterback is remarkably short and that the NFL tends to give its draftee quarterbacks two to three years to develop. Should the draftee fail to develop sufficiently, teams understandably move on to newer prospects.
The worst year for selecting NFL quarterbacks was in 2004. Currently just 6 of 17 selected quarterbacks from that draft are still in the league. This poor showing reflects a few things. Firstly, 17 quarterbacks represent the highest number of quarterbacks selected from any year in our sampling of drafts from 2000 to 2009 during which the average number of quarterbacks selected per year was 12.5. Six of the 17 quarterbacks were taken in the 7th round (including our own B.J. Symons). Not one of these 7th round selections remains in the NFL today.
2004 may have been the year when the practice of taking a flyer on a quarterback with a late draft pick officially ended. Just 35% of all quarterbacks drafted in that particular year are playing in the NFL today.
Another way to appreciate the competence of NFL quarterback selection process is to examine the current roster positions of quarterbacks and compare those to when the quarterback was drafted. In other words, how many 1st round picks are now starters, occupy the second string or worse. By this measure, 1st round draft picks have proven to be extremely good bets. Of the 27 quarterbacks selected in the 1st round, 18 (67%) are projected as starters; while 5 (19%) are second string and 4 (15%) are third string. Those are pretty impressive numbers.
It is in the subsequent rounds where the drop-off becomes dramatic and the performance more erratic. Of the 11 quarterbacks selected in the 2nd round from 2000 to 2009, only 2 (or 18%) are listed as starting quarterback today. Fifty percent of 4th round draft picks (4 out of 8) are projected as starters, while none of the quarterbacks selected in the 5th round are NFL starters. Only one 7th round draft pick is projected as a starter.
Of the 23 first round draft picks selected from 2000 to 2009, 19 are still in the league (a retention rate of 83%). Once you get to the second round picks, this figure falls to 50% (5 out of 10); rises to 62% in the third round, resumes its decline to 44% in the fourth round, and accelerates dramatically to 16%, 26% and just 14% in the fifth, sixth and seventh rounds respectively. Only 3 of 21 quarterbacks selected in the seventh round since 2000 are still in the NFL.
So is Leach right? Is the NFL quarterback selection process ‘indisputably’ flawed? Well, as this evidence suggests, not exactly. What the discussion above instead implies is that the NFL is actually very good at selecting first round talent. It is in the subsequent rounds where the hunt for talent becomes far more elusive. This drop-off is as much a reflection of the disparity in talent from the first round to the following rounds as it underlines just how few players have genuine NFL ability. After the first round, you enter the realm of true speculation.
When one looks at the evidence, in this instance, Coach Leach’s comments, while understandably heartfelt, were not actually grounded in the facts as much as they should have been. It is unfair to point to spectacular failures like a Ryan Leaf as evidence that the entire NFL evaluation process is flawed. Of course over time some mistakes will inevitably be made (injuries, psychological factors, intangibles and a host of other immeasurables constitute the significant unknown risks that accompany any draft pick). What is undeniable – to borrow Coach Leach’s phrase – is that judging NFL talent is an imprecise science at best (and after the first round more like a roll of the dice).
What are the chances of an undrafted quarterback making the NFL and what does this say about Graham Harrell’s chances?
Of the 126 quarterbacks on NFL rosters today (including 2009 draft picks), 29% went undrafted. That sounds like an incredibly high percentage of undrafted players and to some degree might even give credence to Mike Leach’s sentiments that the NFL has a poor track record selecting quarterbacks.
Let’s not get too excited.
Only 4 of the current 36 undrafted quarterbacks are listed as starters (a mere 11% of undrafted quarterbacks), while 25 of the 36 undrafted quarterbacks (69% of non-drafted quarterbacks) occupy the third string position or worse.
These numbers suggest that while it is certainly possible that a non-drafted player may start in the NFL, the odds are long at best. The four starting non-drafted quarterbacks are Kurt Warner, Jake Delhomme, Tony Romo and Shaun Hill. Of these players, only one, Shaun Hill of Maryland, actually played at a major FBS (Football Bowl Subdivision) team. The others were quarterbacks on genuinely obscure college teams (Delhomme played for the then Southwest Louisiana State Rajun Cajuns, which at the time was a member of the Big West Conference).
I raise this distinction to make the argument that it is virtually impossible for a quarterback from a major FBS program who goes undrafted to ultimately become a starting quarterback in the NFL. Shaun Hill is truly a rare specimen.
Why is Shaun Hill’s situation so unique? Firstly, the NFL gets a chance to evaluate quarterbacks from FBS schools more than other players from non-FBS programs. FBS players are on television, play the best competition, and have a high profile body of work which scouts are best able to evaluate. Everyone scrutinizes the same guys – particularly the top performers in the FBS. They are in almost every way impossible to miss.
Shaun Hill, however, was a bit of an exception. He played two years for a junior college, was a backup his junior year and only started in his final season as a senior when he led his team to the top of the ACC, a trip to the Orange Bowl and a number 13 ranking. Despite his success as a team leader, he only played in 14 college games during which he averaged a pedestrian 216 passing yards per game. By FBS standards, Shaun Hill was about as underneath-the-radar-screen as it gets for an NFL prospect. He was literally hiding in plain sight. Shaun Hill’s tenure as a starting college quarterback was so brief that, even as a leader of a successful team, there simply was not a lot of evidence to suggest that he might one day be an NFL-quality quarterback.
Shaun Hill went undrafted in 2002 when he was signed as a free agent by Minnesota. Based on his performance in minicamps and preseason workouts, he was just good enough to earn the third string role. In 2003 he played for the Amsterdam Admirals of the now defunct NFL Europe where he led the league in passing. In 2006 Shaun Hill was signed by the San Francisco 49ers as a third string quarterback behind Trent Dilfer and Alex Smith ( the overall number one selection in the 2005 draft). As in Minnesota, Shaun Hill did not play a single down that season either.
Shaun Hill finally made his NFL debut in December 2007 when Dilfer went down with a concussion. (If you are keeping score, Shaun Hill is now in his fifth year in the NFL). Hill played well enough to start for the rest of the season before missing the final game due to injury. Despite his performance, in 2008 Hill was made a back up to the great J.T. O’Sullivan (who incidentally is playing for his 9th NFL team since 2002 – 11th if you count two tours with Chicago and a stint in NFL Europe). It wasn’t until Mike Singletary took over as interim head coach that Hill was inserted into a late October game after what was becoming a weekly display of gross underperformance by O’Sullivan who by that point was leading the league in interceptions and fumbles. In week 10 of the 2008 season, Hill was finally named the starter, a role he has managed to hold onto for the remaining 6 games prior to this season.
O’Sullivan has left for greener pastures, making the starting position Shaun Hill’s to lose. Shaun Hill’s quarterback competition now includes the former number one draft pick, Alex Smith, who is currently listed as a third string quarterback, having suffered a broken shoulder which may likely end his career prematurely . Smith restructured his contract just to stay on the team. The other quarterbacks are Damon Huard (a 13 year veteran from Washington – who was also undrafted), Kirby Freeman (an undrafted free agent from Baylor), and Nate Davis (a 7th round pick in the 2009 draft out of Ball State). Shaun Hill is starting on a team with arguably one of the least competitive quarterback situations in the league.
So what have we learned from the Shaun Hill case study? How can we extrapolate those lessons to future undrafted quarterbacks from FBS programs might who one day might be able to emulate his success? Here’s the formula in summary:
- Win an opportunity to join a team as an undrafted free agent
- Make said team as a third or fourth string backup
- Avoid being released over the next 3 to 4 years despite never playing a down
- Be sufficiently attractive to another team which covets the services of a fourth or fifth year career backup with a limited NFL track record to serve as its own backup.
- Ideally join a team with a uniquely bad quarterback situation (in Hill’s case he had the good fortune to join a team with a flame-out first round draft bust, a brittle former Super Bowl MVP and an inexperienced career journeyman.).
- Hope for timely injuries to the preceding quarterbacks and/ or excruciatingly poor performances from same quarterbacks
- Presto! - within a mere 7 years, even you can become a starting NFL quarterback (we assume that in the course of those seven years, future prospects will not suffer a career ending injury)
Its safe to say that based on the above case study, Graham Harrell’s chances of starting in the NFL are sadly about as close to nil as it gets. To claim that Graham Harrell suffered from anonymity would be ludicrous. He was the NCAA’s most prolific quarterback, leading the country’s most prolific offense, on the most prolific team in the Leach era. He was on television every week (much of it in prime time), played against the best competition in country in the Big 12 and was the third runner-up for the Heisman. Can you imagine a scout explaining to his GM why he might never have bothered to monitor one of college football’s most productive passers ever? What possible excuse could he or would he come up with? At least with Shaun Hill there is a reason why teams might have overlooked him (Graham Harrell – not so much). It is probably safe to assume that everyone and his mother had more than ample opportunity to evaluate Graham Harrell’s capabilities in great detail.
Furthermore, for Harrell, the situation with the Cleveland Browns was not exactly overly competitive either (although Jacksonville with its three undrafted back up quarterbacks may have been the best situation for Harrell to join a team). In Cleveland, he was competing with two other undrafted quarterbacks with lesser pedigrees (Utah and Tarleton State) for a roster spot. Furthermore, the current incumbents, Brady Quinn – whose own NFL talents remain a question mark – is locked in a battle with Derek Anderson who generated a whopping efficiency rating of 66.5 in 2008 – the worst rating in the NFL. In other words, an unsettled quarterback scenario, such as the one in Cleveland, offered a better than average situation for Harrell to gain a roster spot. As we now know, he was unable to do so.
Of course, who says Graham Harrell should be an NFL starter anyway? Isn’t being a backup good enough? Again let’s look at the numbers.
Fifty-five percent of current 36 undrafted quarterbacks occupy the fourth (or in some cases fifth) spot on the depth charts. It is likely that once NFL rosters are trimmed further, almost all of those quarterbacks will be cut from their respective teams.
That leaves 12 undrafted quarterbacks occupying the second and third roster spots (one-third of all undrafted quarterbacks in the NFL). Only one of the seven undrafted second string quarterbacks comes from a prestigious school - Damon Huard from Washington. The other quarterbacks are all from far more obscure schools (ie Central Washington, Arkansas State, etc). Three of the five undrafted quarterbacks who are listed as third string have an FBS background (Oregon State, Utah and Northwestern). Two of these quarterbacks (Brett Ratliff of Cleveland and Matt Moore of Carolina) have had career trajectories similar to Shaun Hill – college transfers with one good season against FBS completion. The third, Brian Basanez, was a highly successful quarterback at Northwestern whose situation is most similar to that of Graham Harrell – with the obvious caveat that he actually made the team during try outs.
Judging from what we’ve analysed in this discussion so far, Graham Harrell’s best bet is to become the NFL’s next Damon Huard. Like Harrell, Huard was a highly successful college quarterback who kept a nationally prominent Washington team at the top of the polls for most the year. When Huard graduated, he was ranked first in Washington Huskies football history in Total Career Offense, Career Passing, Passing Yards per Attempt (8.41), etc. Despite his unquestionably successful college career, and the fact that every NFL scout was familiar with his abilities and achievements, Mr. Huard somehow went undrafted.
Just how rare is a player like Damon Huard? He is the only active quarterback remaining from his draft class of 1996 (Tony Banks, Bobby Hoying, Jeff Lewis, Danny Kannell, Jon Stark and Kelly Wachholtz are now long gone). Only two other quarterbacks selected between 1994-1997 remain in the league.
Huard began his NFL career in 1996 as an unsigned free agent with the Cincinnati Bengals. He then played for the Miami Dolphins for 3 years where he got a break to play following an injury to Dan Marino. Huard next signed with New England where he spent 2 years and won two Super Bowl Rings as a backup to Tom Brady. After New England, Huard joined the Kansas City Chiefs where he was an on-again, off-again starter for three years during which in his best season he averaged 205 passing yards per game, to his now current team San Francisco.
So let’s see, for Graham Harrell to enjoy a role in the NFL as a career backup, all he would have to do is sign with a team as an undrafted free agent; make the team as a third or fourth stringer; somehow manage to stick with the same team without ever playing a game for 3 years; seize his opportunity to play when the starting quarterback succumbs to injury; impress enough people that despite his limited playing time, he could still be an asset for another team; back up one of the league’s most dominant players for two years with minimal playing time; join a team with a dysfunctional quarterback scenario and play just well enough to convince yet another team that even after 13 years as a career backup that he can still be a valuable asset. Sounds plausible, doesn’t it?
It is fair to argue that Damon Huard might almost be as a rare a specimen as Shaun Hill. Needless to say, both Huard and Hill’s career paths underscore that it is highly improbable for an undrafted major college quarterback to have a meaningful career in the NFL, let alone make a team.
Why are there no Texas Tech quarterbacks in the NFL?
Graham Harrell’s predicament should not be that surprising. The odds of making the NFL are incredibly long in the first place. Since 2000, an average of just 12.5 quarterbacks has been drafted each year.
There are 633 college football programs in the country, comprised as follows:
- 120 FBS teams (i.e. about half of which are considered major programs)
- 126 FCS teams (think Sam Houston State, Texas State, Ivy League etc)
- 147 Division II schools (Tarleton State, Central Washington)
- 240 Division III schools
- 93 NAIA football programs.
Of the 126 quarterbacks currently on NFL roster, 20 have come from non-FBS schools (16% of all quarterbacks). Six of these quarterbacks are from Division II schools and only one is from a Division III school (Justin Goltz, a non drafted quarterback from Occidental College who is currently 4th on Detroit’s depth chart). Nine of the non-FBS quarterbacks were actually drafted.
Using the 2009 NFL roster as our sample, assuming that 13 quarterbacks are drafted each year of which about 2 are from non-FBS teams, we can begin to calculate the odds of even making an NFL team. We also assume that only starting quarterbacks would be considered (with players like Matt Cassell, a backup QB while at USC, being an obvious exception).
- 9.0% of FBS quarterbacks are likely to be drafted in a given year
- 1.0% of FCS quarterbacks are likely to be drafted in a given year
- 0.3% of Division II quarterbacks are likely to be drafted in a given year
- 0.04% of Division III quarterbacks are likely to be drafted in a given year
The fact that Division III Occidental’s Justin Goltz even made an NFL team pre-camp roster is as close to a miracle as one can get (perhaps even moreso than the aforementioned Shaun Hill or Damon Huard).
Graham Harrell is not the only highly successful NCAA quarterback in the 2008 class who failed to get drafted. Of the top quarterbacks who finished in the top 10 in passing efficiency in 2008 and were draft eligible, only one (Mark Sanchez) was drafted. Harrell’s draft performance was matched by fellow top 10 quarterbacks Chase Daniel, Chase Clement (Rice) and David Johnson (Tulsa). In a manner of speaking, Harrell is in good company.
While we’re on the subject of Graham Harrell’s credentials, let us put one particular argument to rest. Graham’s standing in the Heisman race is hardly an indicator of future NFL success. Since 2000, Heisman quarterback winners include Chris Weinke, Eric Crouch, Carson Palmer, Jason White, Matt Leinhart and Troy Smith (Tim Tebow and Sam Bradford are still in college). Of these winners, only Carson Palmer is a starting quarterback. Chris Weinke is out of the league. Eric Crouch never played as a quarterback. Jason White was not even drafted. None have yet to leave their mark on the NFL in any meaningful way. Should Tim Tebow be drafted at all, it will likely be as a utility player – not as a quarterback.
Some of our rival fans who have indulged in their own bit of schadenfreude over a 23 year old college student’s near-term career prospects (seriously guys, get a life) by criticizing the inability of Tech quarterbacks to translate their success at the next level. However, when we look at the current roster of NFL quarterbacks, no college team can claim to have a monopoly on quarterback talent. USC-alums make up the highest number of quarterbacks in the NFL with a grand total of 5 quarterbacks (just 4% of all quarterbacks, 3 of which are projected as starters). Even the claim that USC boasts 3 starting quarterbacks in the NFL might prove to be a bit tenuous. Carson Palmer’s durability is an ongoing concern and Mark Sanchez has yet to play a single down. While we’re at it, the schools with the most number of alumni quarterbacks in the NFL are:
- USC: 5 (3 projected starters)
- Oregon: 4 (0 projected starters)
- Michigan: 4 (1 projected starter)
- Boston College: 4 (2 projected starters)
- Purdue: 3 (2 projected starters)
- Louisville: 3 (0 projected starters)
- Fresno State: 3 (0 projected starters)
As we can see, seven schools are responsible for 21% of the NFL’s quarterbacks and 25% of its projected 2009 starters. Boston College and USC are known to run pro style offenses, Purdue, Louisville and Fresno State run some version of the spread offense, and Michigan was a run-first offense during the tenure of its current NFL alums. What does any of that tell you? (Hint: the correct answer is not very much).
A player’s NFL abilities may depend somewhat on where he went to school, but only somewhat.
There are few conclusions one can draw from the above data other than that a player’s selection into the NFL really is ultimately weighted to physical factors more so than where he went to school, success enjoyed while at school, the type of system he played in or the quality of the competition.
In this respect, the NFL is to college football what the NBA is to college basketball, to what becoming a Hollywood star is to a drama student, to what becoming a multi-millionaire is to most college graduates – there is little correlation between the two sets of experiences, although having success in the latter helps with the former (yet is hardly a guarantee).
Coach Leach’s program will breed NFL quarterbacks in the future. He’s had two drafted already. Graham’s status is disappointing, but if everything else we hear about Harrell is true, he sounds like an outstanding guy who will likely succeed in whatever he chooses to do – whether football related or not. What more can a kid out of Ennis, Texas want than that?
Leach is building a program for the long term. His winning percentage, college graduation rate and ability to elevate Texas Tech into the discussion of the elite college programs are truly testament of his talent as a coach.
Whether Texas Tech players, in particular its quarterbacks, are drafted into the NFL is not a true reflection of his program, nor should it be. No school has a monopoly on NFL talent, and to claim otherwise is misleading. Some college programs such as Ohio State, USC, Florida State do have a high number of representatives in the NFL. Still, as a percentage of overall alumni from those respective programs or when judged as a percentage of any particular position, these numbers are not ultimately meaningful. To argue that one school’s ratio of NFL representatives is more or less statistically meaningless than another school’s is the ultimate exercise in futility.
Tech’s detractors (and supporters) are better off spending their time on more legitimate measures of Texas Tech’s progress and success such as Texas Tech’s overall defensive performance or winning percentage against OU and UT than whether or not its players get drafted.
In the final analysis, let’s hope Coach Leach reconsiders his earlier position, wish Graham Harrell well despite the incredibly long odds of his making it in the NFL, and let’s ever so politely be sure to inform our detractors that their comments about our team and our players are both unwarranted and based on very flimsy facts - if any.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Double-T Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Double-T Nation's writers or editors.
6 recs |
31 comments
Comments
great information....
LondonRaider. The facts are really not what I thought to be. You’re correct in most of what you stated here as I did some digging around myself. l agree that Leach would be better served as concentrating on Tech football and not so much the drafting of players but in his defense but all recruits want to know their likelihood of being an NFL draft propspect from a schools history. Harrell really did get a bad deal and could have easily chosen to go to school at Georgia over Tech. I wonder what he would have been able to do there and if he could be sitting where Stafford is today? It’s all speculation but if I were Harrell I would need therapy right now. I still see him in an NFL uniform somewhere. Great job posting some real insightful information.
by Raider1992 on May 20, 2009 8:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
nice write up
FYI – Kirby Freeman was cut from SF.
The whole Tech system label with the QBs is really no different than the statement of why would a kid want to go to school in Lubbock. Not sure why Lubbock has been painted with such a bad picture because we all know that Manhatten, KS and Lincoln, Neb are small towns that are just as isolated. They are college towns which is what makes them so special. Eventually this will all change in small steps having those successful cases come to the forefront to change the overall perception of Lubbock and the Tech system (i.e. Tech ranked #2 during 09 on national television and Wes Welker). I still am baffeled with the Cowboys choice of getting rid of Matt Moore. I look at it this way, when I first graduated in 99 noone knew who Tech was outside of the big 12 states. Now when I travel to places like Arizona, Maui or South Carolina wearing a Tech shirt there’s always someone who will make a comment about how much fun it is to watch Tech play football.
by ashton99 on May 20, 2009 9:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Excellent and well researched article.
The only thing I think you may have missed is: How many really excellent quarterbacks never really got a chance in the NFL. Never got drafted or got on as a free agent in the first place or never got that chance to develop as an NFL quarterback. Kingsbury and Symons did get a chance, but were they ever put in a position to get the right kind of reps and develop as much as they could have? Obviously NFL teams know what they’re looking for in a quarterback and have to use their own judgment as to whether a player can be trusted to go out on the field and lead their team. You can see why they are a little shy about giving just anybody a chance to play.
by Bornlaser on May 20, 2009 9:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You have a lot of info
But is it complete? No. There are many other factors concerning 6th & 7th round draftees, as well as undrafted players. The most telling reason of why many never make an NFL roster, or barely hang on for a little while, is that the NFL will give their top pick that majority of the reps, leaving the rest to catch whatever crumbs of time that are remaining. Not exactly a realistic opportunity to showcase ones’ talent. Plus, actually being able to play in a game can make up for lost time very quickly, if the player has any abilities at all. There is no way you can say that ALL undrafted players are given just as good a chance to stick as all drafted players, especially those drafted in the first two rounds. Leach is correct about one thing, and that is that the NFL coaches should be able to TEACH some things they say some players need to know to make a team. Their unwillingness to put in the effort to do so has resulted in a huge number of players being left out of the mix, not because they have less talent, just that they are not awarded equal chances to make the team as those drafted high. They simply do not receive the same attention from the coaches. Basically, you have offered a good argument for Harrell’s failure to make a roster, but there is still many more reasons than you have covered. About the only way to make a legitimate case would be to go further, but then you will wind up with a book or two on the subject, not a post on this blog.
TTpilk
by TTpilk645 on May 20, 2009 10:49 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agreeTTpilk
Excellent analysis LondonRaider!!! But I agree w/TTpilk, it’s not a level playing field if you’re a 6th or 7th round pick. NFL football is big business, it’s ALWAYS about the money, inasmuch, they have made SUBSTANTIAL investments in their first round picks. From a business standpoint, they will not/cannot easily admit that they made a mistake in judgment, much less cast them aside. Jerry Jones and Quincy Carter come to mind immediately…..
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes
by cityman on May 20, 2009 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I really don't
understand your criticism of LondonRaider. This is terrific analysis and I can’t imagine how long this took to put together. I don’t think LR is saying that all undrafted QB’s have the same odds, but he’s laying the odds out there. I also don’t understand your comment about this being tedious. That seems a bit harsh.
And maybe this is the best thing for Harrell. What if Harrell’s journey ends up like Romo’s? I’m not saying that Harrell will turn out to be like him, but what if this situation gives Harrell the opportunity to get on a practice squad, get stronger, learn an offense, etc. I also think this points to the idea that on a practice squad, a player can get reps without much pressure to prepare for a game. I too think that much of a player’s progress is up to the player rather than the team. It goes for Harrell as much as Crabtree, although admittedly, Crabtree has a much better opportunity. Lemonade out of lemons.
Go Raiders . . .
Double-T Nation
by Seth C on May 21, 2009 6:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
DTN
I am not really criticizing LondonRaider. I am simply pointing out that he would have to put even more time in and write a couple, or more books on the subject to be able to cover all reasons Harrell and others in the same boat are ultimately left out of the equation. When I said it must have been tedious, how can you say that is harsh. To put as much time and effort into the article as he obviously did is a tedious achievement. It isn’t a knock, just an observation of work required. I agree that Harrell could even eventually wind up in the NFL at some capacity, but it will just take longer than I feel he actually deserves. Just my opinion.
TTpilk
by TTpilk645 on May 21, 2009 8:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rec'd
Thanks for a great read.
¡Viva los Matadores!
by jwhitettu on May 20, 2009 1:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Epic Post!
Thanks for your analysis.
by CoryCardwell on May 20, 2009 5:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That had to take two weeks to do!! Great job!
I agree with most of what you said. I also don’t think 32 scouting and personnel departments are all missing the boat. Those guys aren’t as dumb as we want to believe. There is something about Harrell they obviously don’t like and that’s just life sometimes. I don’t think it’s a Texas Tech issue, it’s a Graham Harrell issue, especially when viewed through the lens of QBs coming from unknown colleges to make an impression.
To TTpilk’s point about coaches needing to show a willingness to teach certain things to players…why would you want to do that when there appears to be plenty of players with the size and tools you want who already know this stuff? There are limited roster spots and limited time a coach wants to spend teaching a kid something he probably feels is intrinsic to the position.
I certainly hope things work for Harrell in the NFL or CFL or wherever he lands.
by Tech92 on May 20, 2009 7:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Whatever.
I was going to write a bunch of rebuttal stuff, but decided to just hold off. You have your thoughts on the subject, just as do I. So be it. LondonRaider had a long and tedious post and went much farther than just about anyone else would. His assessment is probably as good as can be done given the circumstances. Done.
TTpilk
by TTpilk645 on May 21, 2009 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You should see my post from the other day
where I provide video footage of Graham completing NFL passes. Obviously I am no expert, but it would appear from these videos that Harrell has most of these “tools” (smarts, accuracy, touch, leadership, even the dreaded under the center snap!) that any NFL team would love to have in a QB. Again, I’m no expert, and you are entitled to your opinion, but I just don’t see where Harrell is so far underdeveloped in reference to most other rookie NFL QB prospects…especially after creating that post and viewing those videos. It’s worth a look!
by techtom4 on May 21, 2009 1:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the biggest point I wanted to make is that 32 NFL personnel departments disagree with you for some reason or another. What is that reason? I really have no clue what it is, but that’s the reality of it. And us picking nits over it won’t get him a job.
I did look at your post a while back (nice work). I don’t disagree that he’d appear to have what you’d think he would need. But the people who count in this scenario don’t think so. Not to offend, but if I’m picking sides on this and who’s right, I’ll defer to the guys who get paid to evaluate and sign talent. Flawed as they may be.
by Tech92 on May 21, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh The Humanity
The one thing that I saw with Graham Harrell that MAYBE the NFL coaches and scouts are seeing, is when he was under constant pressure in the backfield ie.. the OU and Ole Miss games, he made alot of poor decisions resulting in interceptions, safeties etc… That’s really the only thing that stood out to me as much of a weakness other than his arm strength.
We had one bad ass offensive line last year! So I’m not sure there was much of a pass rush on Graham in the rest of the games last season other than maybe Nebraska. And I’m talking about consistant pressure here. The kind of pressure that can rattle most mortal men. You know, like when a couple 250lb. muscle bound monsters are in your face every other play as you are trying to look over their shoulder to read the defense or throw downfield. We as fans take this for granted, having never even attempted to do it ourselves. After one blindside hit, most of us would relinquish our will to stand in there and take any more punishment, for the rest of that day for sure, and possibly for alot longer than that. And that’s if we were lucky enough to get up off the turf by our own strength! It’s just amazing to me how some QBs regain their composure so quickly after getting popped or thrown like a ragdoll.
Graham had a hard time recovering at times last year. I’m not saying Graham Harrell is weak. He proved to me that he IS TOUGH as a BOOT in the Baylor game, by overcoming a 14 point deficit in the second half with the injury to his hand that required 17 pins to repair. And some would argue that Graham’s ability to lead the team to victory by coming from behind late in games throughout his career is proof of mental toughness. But maybe the scouts are looking for a certain level of mental toughness that we hear about so often in sports, that very few athletes have. The reason I say a certain level is because it is obvious that he is mentally tough. But I’m thinking he just does not have the level of mental toughness required to play in the NFL like most college quarterbacks. Maybe Graham Harrell is human after all:)
by TT4EVER on May 21, 2009 5:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I actually agree with the above 100% and think this is why Harrell didn’t get drafted, but that said, I think LondonRaider’s analysis is flawed for a variety of reasons. The first is the “fuzzy” math that doesn’t seem to line up, unless someone can please explain the following discrepancy to me:
“Of the 126 quarterbacks drafted since 2000, 79 players (or 63% of all drafted quarterbacks) are still in the league. "
“Only 4 of the current 36 undrafted quarterbacks are listed as starters”
79 + 36 = 115, 115 <> 126, so there’s at least 11 QBs that are “disappearing” somewhere in the analysis. I also think it’d be more helpful if the analysis was actually much MORE expansive and provided names for context (altho I understand space considerations), since knowing that Peyton Manning was drafted and a starter isn’t the same as Kyle Orton was drafted and a starter.
But the bigger issue I take with it, is the consistent “moving targets”. As proof of logic, he evidences “63% of drafted quarterbacks (which is an ill formed statement considering what it seems to be saying) are still in the league”, but for undrafted quarterbacks “still in the league” is a pathetic measurement and the only “worthy” standard is “listed as starters” (4). If we follow his own analysis, something like 35-40% of drafted quarterbacks survive their first 3 (or so) years (pre-2005). If you do the math (even ignoring the 11 “missing” QBs) 36/126 = 28% of undrafted QBs are “still in the league”. Considering that management has ZERO reason to retain those guys outside of production (there’s no reputation to lose over the choice over an undrafted guy), I’d say that implies that QBs follow this sort of pattern:
~a third are great (or serviceable) players selected in the draft
~a third are (at minimum) serviceable players who work their way on a roster (undrafted)
the rest are (soon to be proven) terrible choices that people are trying to make work, often because they’ve ALREADY BEEN PAID
Again, I don’t think Harrell would be a Hall of Fame NFL QB, but I think the analysis of his situation and Leach’s opinion is terribly flawed.
by HeeroTX on May 21, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
just because my own wording is bad...
by “I actually agree with the above 100%” I mean I agree with TT4EVER
by HeeroTX on May 21, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very Nice!
Thank you for the hard work.
Graham may have run into that hard fact about football, hard work, good character, and dedication will always get trumped by the physically gifted. Untold ten of thousands of Texas athletes will be told every year that they are part of the team and that they contribute to the team effort every time they practice. In fact they are just mobile tackling dummies and will never get any significant playing time no matter how hard they work.
Of course it builds character and is a metaphor for life.(I am sure Graham’s dad used this line, never known a coach who didn’t ) Kid’s who worked their butts off for Graham’s dad but didn’t get much playing time because he need to win to keep his job understand Graham’s pain.
I bet they would still like to see him get a shot at the NFL because they are people of good character.
VIVA LA FIGA!
by bmaxw on May 20, 2009 10:59 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Well Written
But even though you went to such great lengths to discourage our hopes of Harrell playing in the NFL, he still DESERVES a fair shot. There’s no reason that, given the right coordinator and system, he couldn’t be the next Tom Brady. No reason at all. Makes me sick that my favorite team, the Niners, gave Kirby Freeman a shot and aren’t paying any attention to Harrell. Kirby Freeman?? The Miami Hurricanes’ old Interception Machine? Charlie Frye and Kyle Bollinger are still in the league, and no one has any room for one of the best quarterbacks in college football history to prove himself?
Basically what I’m saying is, yes, I still think Leach is right. What you’ve proven with your numbers is that the NFL is sufficiently competent at drafting quarterbacks, and not good at it.
by techsig12 on May 21, 2009 11:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
While I think this is a good post and a lot of work has been put it to it, I too think that this is slightly flawed logic. I believe that Leach’s comments were more about the NFL missing on more ‘elite’ to ‘top notch’ quaterbacks than quarterbacks as a whole. I think that staying power in the NFL is one thing, but success is the true measure of the NFL’s ability to draft a quaterback. It would have been far more meaningful if you took the drafted quarterbacks and separated them based on games started and winning percentage. I have not done so, but I would suspect that those statistics might favor Leach’s comments. Beyond that, you would have to acknowledge and gauge just how many of the better starters had good to decent college careers, how many disappointing starters had quality college careers and how that measures up to Harrell. Bottom line is that if the NFL were so great on rating prospects, then why was Tom Brady a 6th round pick? Why was Ryan Leaf top two? Why does Leinart sit the bench? David Carr? Joey Harrington? I realize that those are just a few, but the point is to listen to what Leach is saying and see that he is not talking about a guy going in the 5th, 6th or 7th round…he is talking about the prospects that the scouts wet themselves over based on nothing more than a tape measure. Those guys are, I think, are more miss than hit, indicating that the system of rating these guys might be a little flawed.
by jcw114 on May 22, 2009 1:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the Great Comments
Thanks for all the great comments. I can’t hold a candle to Seth C, who does it day in and day out (and should inspire us all),but I appreciate the kind words.
Please allow me respond to the comments (in no particular order)
HeeroTX
I can understand why HeeroTX might think the math might be a bit fuzzy. That’s partially my fault, because I should have pointed out that the remaining 11 ‘missing’ quarterbacks were drafted before 2000.
So for the record 126 (now 125) quarterbacks equals:
• 79 drafted quarterbacks greater than or equal to 2000
• 36 undrafted quarterbacks (pre and post 2000)
• 11 Drafted quarterbacks less than 2000
• -1 Less one Kirby Freeman (hat tip to Ashton99)
The list I’m working from is a bit of a moving target because at the margins, players get cut and added, so will certainly change over the coming weeks. However, I think the overall conclusions remain pretty sound.
Tech92
I agree that the number of NFL placements by a particular college program is a big consideration for some incoming players. My guess is that this applies mainly to blue chip recruits who are being competitively sought after and actually think of themselves as potential NFL calibre players. At the same time, any coach who claims to possess some sort of inroad to the professional ranks is basically, to put it politely, lying (of course who am I to impugn the integrity of a college football coach).
As I point out with the quarterback position, the reality is that the source of NFL quarterbacks is fragmented across a number of college programs to the extent that no one school can honestly claim to have some sort of definable edge over other schools.
Such is the case for other positions as well. Take Penn State for example. The school’s nickname is Linebacker U. Right now Penn State can boast of 5 linebackers in the NFL. There are approximately 350 linebackers listed on NFL rosters. When you look at a statistic like that, you can’t help but ask yourself what a term like Linebacker U is even supposed to mean.
What’s unique about schools like Texas Tech is that if you are truly a talented receiver, offensive lineman, all-purpose running back or quarterback, my question is why wouldn’t you play for the Red Raiders? If no school has a monopoly of NFL talent, why not go to the school that allows you to showcase your talent better than almost any place in the NCAA. At least if you don’t get drafted, you can’t second guess your decision of where you decided to play by saying that a particular system suppressed your talent. You’re certainly going to get your touches.
Maybe if Terrell Owens played for Mike Leach, he wouldn’t be the annoying premadonna he is today, because his endless desire to get enough touches could have been long ago satiated. Having said all of this, personally I think Graham Harrell played in a system that, perhaps better than any other, provided him with a great opportunity to showcase his strengths and weaknesses.
The NFL is about arm strength and quick release. It’s akin to the phrase in basketball, ‘you can’t coach height.’ There are just some things you are born with. \
Born Laser, Cityman and TTPilk,
I sympathize with your point about how many guys with talent never got a fair shot. Of course, late round picks and undrafted free agents are not going to get the same reps or opportunities as the incumbent starters – that is at least not initially. The tough part about being undrafted is that you don’t get the benefit of the doubt when you start in camp. But there is ample opportunity throughout camp for players to separate themselves from the rest of the players.
Quarterback drills include endless repetition of out patterns, slants, posts etc. These drills allow a coach the opportunity to understand a player’s arm strength. Line up four guys, let them hurl the rock all day long. See who does it the best. These drills are filmed. Coaches are able to measure accuracy, velocity, timing of the release.
NFL coaching is highly specialized. Each team has a guy who gets paid a lot of money to monitor and oversee an entire group of 4 or 5 whole people. He’s called a Quarterback Coach. His job is to analyze every aspect of these 4 or 5 people’s lives every waking moment of every day. There is almost nothing about these guys that a Quarterback Coach doesn’t know. He knows what they eat, what they drink and all the other good stuff too.
Now this Quarterback Coach isn’t just any kind of coach. He’s typically young, ambitious, and often times a former quarterback. He knows very well that a) there are a million guys who would love to have his job and probably be just as good at it, and b) if he can distinguish himself, he might have the opportunity to be an offensive coordinator one day, and maybe even a head coach. He’s typically not the kind of guy who plays its safe just to get along.
Imagine a no-name guy comes in and demonstrates that he has NFL-level capabilities in all of the areas that matter. You are the quarterback coach. Would you cut him just because he’s undrafted? Given the historical mediocrity of quarterbacks drafted after the first round, wouldn’t you let the kid stick around a while to see what he can do?
You determine that a kid has enough physical and mental raw material to play at the next level. So now you let the kid run a few series against the first or second team defense. Can he survive the pressure? Can he make the throws in a live simulation? Can he handle the speed? Can he take a hit? You get the idea.
So he doesn’t get the same number of reps as a starter, so what? Wouldn’t a smart coach say to himself, ‘I don’t have the room, salary cap etc to keep this kid, but maybe if I can convince him to sign onto my practice squad (and no one else happens to picks him up), I can get to know the kid better and along the way see how he develops. If my hunch is right and he turns out to be the next Kurt Warner, I could be credited as a genius for not just spotting talent (BUT DEVELOPING THAT TALENT) which could one day translate into more wins, cash and glory.’
‘If I’m wrong, then screw it, it didn’t cost me that much, and who’s going to say anything about yet another undrafted marginal quarterback who gets cut from the practice squad.’
‘If I am wrong, because I’m a moron or am afraid to rock the boat, and this kid winds up being the next Wes Welker, then I might as well pack my bags and go home because my boss will probably fire me anyway. I sure won’t be on anyone else’s short list any time soon.’
In this example, I’m merely pointing out that it is in a Coach’s interest to hang on to quarterbacks who genuinely might show some promise one of these days. There is a huge upside, and almost no downside for giving players ample opportunity to demonstrate their talents. Given the huge incentives for coaches to take a risk on guys who show raw promise, I don’t know if the problem of late round draft picks or undrafted quarterbacks not getting a fair shake is that widespread.
Techsig 12
Totally agree, and hope Graham Harrell’s gets his shots. He seems like an excellent kid.
JCW14
I think tenure and roster positions are better overall proxies to determine all NFL quarterbacks’ success than winning percentage and games started. One of the problems with being too granular is that there is no real way to measure the success of guys who never play in games. How good was Shaun Hill from 2002 to 2006? There’s no way of knowing, because he never played. What we do know is that he was good enough to stick around, and that counts for a lot. Right now there are 32 starters and 93 backups. How do assess the other 93 – based on what a backup quarterback might have done for 19 minutes when a starter got the wind knocked out of him in 2003?
You ask me to look at how many successful starters and disappointing starters had quality college careers, and compare that to Harrell. Well I presume that just about every NFL starter (not counting exceptions like Matt Cassell) was pretty successful in college in some fashion. I think you’ll see very few bad college quarterbacks in the NFL, if any. Comparing incumbent NFL quarterbacks’ college careers to Harrell’s is easy. Harrell is one of the top NCAA quarterbacks of all time, ergo, by definition almost every other NFL quarterback had a less productive college career than Harrell. So I’m not sure what that analysis could tell us.
I think we are making a similar point about the draft process, with a few important qualifiers. Firstly, we cannot look at the exceptions and use them to make generalizations about the entire draft process. Sure there have been some first round busts, and some successful late round picks, but when one looks at the process as a whole, by and large the NFL gets it right in the first round. I also demonstrate that in the latter draft rounds the process is much more speculative, but as the analysis indicates, this outcome is more reflective of the dearth of NFL calibre quarterbacks in general, rather than integrity of the draft process.
Secondly, I think it’s unfair to NFL scouts and coaches to characterize them as hairy knuckled Neanderthals who are incapable of assessing talent (of course, as with anything, some might be). These guys eat and breathe this stuff. They have a huge incentive to get it right. They are experts. Of course, some coaches and scouts are better than others. In Harrell’s case, no one picked him up, and only one team invited him for tryouts. Later that team cut him. Could it be possible that the coaches and scouts of all 32 teams are too blind to appreciate the talents of one of the most statistically successful quarterbacks in college football history?
by LondonRaider on May 22, 2009 5:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey, I feel like the last one picked in dodgeball:) Or even worse, not picked at all:(
Honestly, I didn’t even read all of the main post or hardly any of this reply here either. I just looked for any reference to me today…lol that sounds horrible, but it is what it is I guess. I have to say though, it was a valiant effort my friend. Putting that kind of time into anything will pay you back some dividends in the long run.
Changing the subject entirely here I know but, was it you that posted a long list of great things about Lubbock and West Texas just after the Texas game? If so, that was my all time favorite post here on DTN. And if not, sorry to bother you.
by TT4EVER on May 22, 2009 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the reply LondonRaider
I do agree that we are making similar points, and I know that the scouts and coaches are the experts, while I clearly am not. The main thing I was trying to get across was that while tenure and roster positions may be a good overall indicator of the scouting process, I think we can both agree that it takes quite a bit of luck and good fortune to stick around without actually playing. By looking at teh first two rounds and looking at the winning percentage or qb rating, you might have a better gauge of whether the scouts are drafting based on potential and physical standards (like height) versus playing potential and productivity. Clearly Harrell was one of the best statisitcally and therefore almost all will fall short, but the point I was trying to make was how many of those guys that are drafted early are drafted solely because they have the ‘look’? (Josh Freeman comes to mind…) But I do appreciate the thought provoking points you bring up and I guess we can agree to both be baffeled as to why some guys get drafted with little or no college success, and the one of the most successful is playing PS3….
by jcw114 on May 23, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LondonRaider
Your logic is impeccable..
‘If I am wrong, because I’m a moron or am afraid to rock the boat, and this kid winds up being the next Wes Welker, then I might as well pack my bags and go home because my boss will probably fire me anyway. I sure won’t be on anyone else’s short list any time soon.’
Epic.
by Campeador on May 24, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, so now you've peaked my curiosity...
So who were the morons that cut Wes Welker from the Chargers during the first week of the season in 2004?
And where are they now?
by Houston Raider on May 29, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some Quarterbacks
I’m not sure anyone is still reading this page anymore, but there are some quarterbacks drafted high in the NFL who are good quarterbacks with bad statistics. It would be really hard to prove what I’m saying here but take David Carr as an example:
Carr was Sacked a record 76 times with the expansion Texans in 2002 and nearly matched it with 68 in 2005. Whose fault was all those sacks? His? Not sure, but I don’t think the quarterback is the only man on the field. I’m not sure how good Tom Brady would have looked with the Houston Texans back then. How much better would Carr have been if he would have played for the Patriots? Stats don’t tell everything. Still Carr was able to rank just above average two of the five years while with Houston. The other three years were not as good. On the other hand, maybe he should have made better decisions and needed to be more mobile (A lot of great quarterbacks were not really all that mobile) This is not about David Carr. My point is that all quarterbacks who have bad statistics are not necessarily bad quarterbacks. Maybe the NFL is not really notoriously bad at picking QB’s. Maybe they are not so good at surrounding their QB’s with the right supporting cast. What do y’all think?
by Bornlaser on May 26, 2009 10:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Another example of that stellar NFL scouting:
One candidate (for play of the day) was a sideline throw from rookie Pat White to 5-foot-8 free-agent rookie Chris WIlliams, who had beaten Davis. But White continues to be inaccurate on many of his throws, looking like a QB chucking, not passing, the ball.
by HeeroTX on May 29, 2009 10:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Still Wondering
If Graham Harrell got his chance in the NFL, wouldn’t it make a huge difference where? The right time, the right place, the right opportunities…
If he were to get stuck with the wrong team, with a poor offensive line or no really good receivers who can separate, he would never be able to prove to anyone that he is not just a system quarterback. Many so-called “busts” were probably not really all that bad. They just didn’t get into the right fit with the right team.
by Bornlaser on Jun 1, 2009 9:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The answer, I think, is quite simple.
You can say what you want about scouts, QBs getting/deserving chances, and what not. The thing i think is the biggest obstacle to anyone getting a shot to play QB in the NFL is the size of the contracts being paid to the guys at the top of the depth chart. This makes teams extremely reluctant to pull the plug on the Rex Grossmans of the world.
Its hard to get turnover at the position and therefore chances for new guys to have any kind of success
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Jun 2, 2009 12:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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