Talking some Defense...
I was a little bored on this Saturday afternoon, started thumbing through Texas Tech Web Links and came across a particular deal about Dixon declaring his eligibility into the NFL; losing B. Williams to the NFL and possibly losing Sesay because of academic problems. Wow, 3 BIG performers gone after the 2008 season... so what do I say:
RELOAD!!!!
Lets see thats 2 LB's from TT possibly heading to the NFL under 1st yr DC Mcneill (and who would not agree Sesay has what it takes to make it in the pro's as well?). This has got to say something about the way McNeill has handled adversity in his 1st FULL season as the DC. IF Sesay is a loss coming into the season... things may still be alright, dont forget about Whitlock, Duncan, Bird, and the other Williams along with J. Wall. ALL were very productive last season... these individuals are 5 of the top 7 leading tacklers coming back for TT this coming season. Dixon was not even in that list and Sesay only had 8 TOTAL tackles for the SEASON.
(All stats prior to the Bowl Game)
As for B. Williams, he came in at #13 in total tackles... ones returning this season whom were ahead of him- B. Nickerson (DB) and R. Jones (DL), which if you count correctly 7 of the top 13 tacklers are coming back this coming season. Tech will not be in that bad of shape... even if you check out the young secondary, they are actually not that inexperienced. This team may be the darkhorse in disguise if you ask me. Check it out...
In the Secondary: J. Wall and B. Nickerson are more or less the veterans in this area. Dont forget that there were 2 freshman that DO have game experience from last season... T. Charbonnet (11 Total Tackles in 8 games) and J. Flannel (12 total in 6), both played in 6 or more games. Even SO F. Mitchem had quite an impressive season totalling 15 tackles in 10 games and playing in the final 8 regualar season games. Charbonnet played in 3 of the final 4 games of the regular season; Flannel played in 2 of the final 3... so both may be young, but are well experienced in their fields... especially throughout the offseason. That is already 5 in the secondary that had sometype of gametime and have over 10 total tackles for the season... ALL exceeding Sesay's numbers in 6 games. Even SO L. Moore (DB) had 9 total tackles in ONLY 4 games, 4 tackles coming in the OU game... making it 6 in the secondary with field experience. Dont forget about B. Dewhurst either, whom had a strong performance in the Sring game and probably coming along well throughout the offseason.
So the Secondary is not in all that bad of shape... even hearing some positive feedback from RS FR Cody Davis... an INT run back for a TD and 5 solo tackles in spring game against the AirRaid. Also some positive feedback from the likes of both RS FR Daniel Cobbs and Will Ford.
As for the DL... This bunch is going to be the backbone of the D in my eyes. Whitlock and Jones are going to have to lead this bunch from the getgo... Their motivation and determination are going to fallback on the young lions such as Perry and Henley, along with returning SR S. Riley. They should be getting assistance from veteran LB's such as M. Williams, B. Bird, and returning SR V. Hunter (whom had the same amount of total tackles as B. Williams- 21).
There were quite a bit of RS FR and young SO stepping up last season and TT pulled out an 11-2 season with that bunch filling in positions when needed. With alot of questions still floating around in each position of the Defense, I can see something that is somewhat comforting. Even with 7 of the 8 players in the starting/backup position in the secondary gone, there were still another 5 that actually had playing time out on the field (6 counting Dewhurst)... and NOW have that experience to push them this coming season.
Let other teams out there think that the Red Raiders are going to have inexperience in the DB/CB/Safety position this coming season. Let them think that losing not only B. Williams to the NFL but now Dixon (likely playing in that same league) being out of the lineup and Sesay possibly not making the grade... is going to hurt Texas Tech this season. Let them think that Texas Tech losing their best QB/WR matchup is going to hurt the AirRaid in 2009... losing half their starting Offensive Line is going to make this team fallback to a 5 loss season. I want to see the eyes of those same people after the Texas Tech Red Raiders prove them wrong yet again as they did last season.
Yeah, i was bored... now time to go do something. Haaaaa
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Double-T Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Double-T Nation's writers or editors.
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I trust this defense in 09
txt3ch6uy given you a rec fellow blogger. I like you expressed – feel confident in the stopping power of the D Line and the speed and experience of the back 7. We have a good set of assistant coaches and the defense is really 2 deep. Cant wait to see the first kick off. Go Tech! ( and its still a long summer…)
this is where reliance on stats can screw you up
I don’t care how many tackles Dixon had (or didn’t have), he was a difference-maker on your defense.
Of all the areas to be weak on defense, defensive line and secondary are the two that can hurt the worst. Teams that control the line win games, and if your DL is weak, you will not win games. A strong DL keeps the opposing OL occupied and off your linebackers, so if your DL is weak, it won’t matter how good your LBs are.
I didn’t think much of your secondary last season, so I think it will be more of the same this year.
I haven’t thought much of your whole team the last few years;)))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jny7DfHjq3g&feature=channel_page
OK you got me TT4EVER
I thought he link was going to be some great video montage of our unholy dominance over the aggies, and I get a kid falling on a skim board? WTH?
FIFY
Sweet vid...
The kid falling is symbolic of the agsy football program the past several years in that it has taken a terrible fall;)
Your Ironclad grip of the totally obvious is astounding
Of all the areas to be weak on defense, defensive line and secondary are the two that can hurt the worst.
secondary + defensive line = eight out of eleven players on a defensive unit.
way to stick to the thick branches
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Jul 13, 2009 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions
it isn't an issue of math
it is simple location on the field
if you’re weak on DL or the secondary, you’re weak at the front end and back line of youre defense.
If you’re DL sucks, you will be giving up ground at the point of attack. If your secondary sucks, you’ll be getting shredded through the air. If your LBs suck, you can make up for that with a stellar pass rush or a strong secondary.
If your DL or secondary sucks, great LB play really can’t help you, b/c a weak DL means the opposing OL will crush your LBs, and your LBs aren’t athletic enough to stop wide receivers downfield.
In any case
Youre comment is nowhere near as insightful as you would like to think it is.
I suppose next youll be telling us bacon and eggs go well together.
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Jul 14, 2009 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions
12th man...
if you dont remember you will now… I am an anti-horn fan, tremendously but will say this about them last season. They finished with a 12-1 record, only losing to a fellow co-divisional champion team TT. They had one of the worst secondaries in the country yet one of the best DL in the country… so you cant say that a bad secondary or a bad DL will make you inferior as a team. Just means that the other counterpart will have to make up for the slack in the other… called counter attack. A very, very good DC will be able to make changes where and when needed… Muschamp, McNeill, and Vennobeles (sp.) did just that last season to finish with 10+ wins for the season. Quite a bit of Red Raider Defensive RS FR along with young SO contributed in helping Tech finish with 11 wins last season… that is experience on their side. Even if they did play in the two losses that Tech possessed so be it… it is a learning experience.
As for Dixon, no one ever said that he was NOT a play maker… All I was saying was that there are others on the team to contribute other than just Dixon. That showed throughout the season… either it be M. Williams, Whitlock, Bird, Jones, Sesay, Duncan, Hunter, and others. There are other Difference Makers for the Red Raiders on both sides of the ball… NOT just one player. Dixon, B. Williams, and possibly Sesay will be missed, but there is plenty of confidence that others will contribute tremendously in their absence.
texas also had good LBs
texas’ front seven was solid, their DL was spectacular.
Tech has neither coming into this season.
texas’ biggest asset on defense was their offense, b/c they had many games where they simply outscored the opposition (OU and OSU in particular).
McNeill odesn’t belong in the same conversation with Muschamp and Venables, and it is premature, if not outright hyperbole, to call him a “very, very good DC”. Where was this “very, very good DC” with his “adjustments” against OU and Mississippi?
it’s called a body of work, genius. McNeil has it, albeit short. Where were Muschamp’s adjustments that gave up the game winning drive on nov 1st?
We won that game. But we aren’t you. We will not say Muschamp isnt a good DC on the strength of one game. Both teams fought hard. We came out on top. Period.
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Jul 14, 2009 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Wrong
Texas actually had a very good secondary. Certainly came up short late against Tech, but if you adjust to how many times Texas faced the pass, we did pretty well matched up to other teams in the league. You’re probably looking way too much at simply total passing yards given up per game. We weren’t elite (though watch out this year), but not one of the worst in the country. Certainly, we had a better one than Texas Tech.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jul 17, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
How far did that get ya with advancing to the championship game? Maybe you should have flown that over Dan Bebe’s house day after the game. Life ain’t fair, we all got screwed, us to a lesser extent, but we all had the same conf. record.
I was merely answering to that poor response
If one game proves we have a worse secondary than Tech, than surely it is pertinent to bring up the fact that Tech gave up 63 points to OU? Now, I don’t think arguing that manner proves anything, but it again, it was just an act of gamesmanship to techtom’s response.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jul 19, 2009 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions
???
What does 62-21 (it was actually 65-21) have to do with the UT vs. Tech game? You said you had a better secondary, well apparently you do not since you lost that game because Harrell was able to torch your secondary, while McCoy had a below average game compared to how he usually plays. Since head-to-head comparisons are the only thing in the world that matter or mean anything to UT fans, how can you say UT had a better secondary than Tech, considering Tech’s secondary won the head-to-head battle statistically?
Just watched the game again
Charbs just barely missed a possible pick 6 in the 1st half and THEN, did get a pick 6 in the 2nd half. Now I’m not living in fantasy a world, so I will give UT the fact that Shipley missed a TD catch behind our D and that one kid torched us for a 90 yard TD, plus “Gideon.” But, you would need to concede the phantom offensive interference call on Crabs, Crabs’ fumble deep in our own territory, which your O only got a FG on, and Ed Britton’s drop in the endzone.
I love how these threads can take on a life of their own and last for days.
As I said above
Your response seemed to be just a blanket statement that a game between teams proves who has the better secondary, not even taking into account other possible factors. I just gamely replied in the same manner, for surely with a common opponent, Texas giving up 35 while Tech gave up 63 is relevant, no? But as I said above, I do not believe this is fruitful discussion, so I’ll move on with something of more substance since I actually drew some sort of response from you now.
I know this game is near and dear to Tech fans, because it is possibly the greatest victory in the Leach era (alongside defeating Cal), so I’m not trying to poop on your memories. However, we lost that game for a variety of reasons, and not just because our young secondary made mistakes at the end. In fact, I will say that our offense was the one that truly screwed up in the first half, coming out brain dead. That last touchdown? The only offensive second half touchdown from Tech. Tech was under their season averages almost across the board.
A lot of things went wrong that game, and that includes the secondary. However, I actually do not believe they deserve the most blame, and one bad drive starring a dropped interception and a defensive brainfart from our two freshman safeties doesn’t automatically mean our secondary was terrible.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jul 19, 2009 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions
blah, blah...
those are just more excuses i hear about this game, every single time this subject is brought up. Dont understand why UT fans just opening CANNOT admit that they lost that game fair and square. But hey, us as Tech fans understand that our team got annihilated by the Sooners in Norman.
I will say this on the Red Raiders defense then leave it alone. That game could and should have been an annihilation by the Red Raiders in Lubbock. Too many mistakes that should have never been… but hey, im ok with this close win. I have a feeling that if the game was a 52-27 or so win against the Horns, there would have been a more worrisome tremble through my body this coming season. Beating the Horns like that would surely mean an unrelentless beating in Austin this coming season. This game was of national importance and the TT players had a heavy weight above their shoulders…. UT players are used to this, not so much TT players. Being in this type of attention, more than likely threw off alot of their emotions… most of the players, this being their first time in this type of atmosphere.
Yawn
When did I say Tech didn’t win fair and square? This is just more examples of Tech fans, emboldened by such a win, to try to make every Texas fan come off as somebody making excuses. We made mistakes, we made plays, but we ultimately lost. Tech made plays, made mistakes, and ultimately won. That’s football. Your rather silly assertion that your mistakes cost you an “annihilation” is no different than what you just accused me of doing. In fact, I argued that that game actually proved that Tech was NOT an elite team last season. As horrendous as Texas played that first half with a plethora of dropped balls and missed assignments, we would have been killed by a team like USC or Florida. The fact that Tech nearly lost that game, a game at home with the best first half of the Leach era, told me they’d get killed in Norman. When OSU flopped in Lubbock, I was preparing for the massive controversy because I knew Tech had no chance on the road against Oklahoma.
Speaking of which, I’m amused how Tech fans pretend this has never happened before. Tech has upset teams at home before, such as OU the past two times. Mike Leach has never beaten Texas and OU in the same season, and he never will until he learns to prepare your team to play in hostile environments.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jul 19, 2009 11:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Just happy to be having this argument with a faithful Horn. Things are looking up for us, just a few years back, we were having this discussion with the Aggies. Here’s to progress.
You guys have certainly risen up over the Aggies
Much to the anger of people in College Station, it seems. Tech has had good teams the past decade, dangerous teams that can win on any Saturday. While Leach has done much to improve Tech’s program, I question whether or not if he’s the right guy to keep around for the proverbial next step. However, gotta give him his props for the stuff he’s done in Lubbock.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jul 20, 2009 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions
another time?
Sure why not? For that comment about Tech only having ONE second half TD… WRONG Einstein… that was their second. As for being under their average… lets see the passing game had 474 total yards, rushing yards (minus the sacks totaling 25 yards) was 130, which is 5 yards per carry. Tech averaged 531 yards through the air and 117 yards on the ground (with the sacks) and 126 (with the sacks). So ok, TT was a bit under in the passing game, but came up big in the running game… Totaling 604 yards of offense (minus the sacks) in the Longhorn game and averaging 657 yards of offense throughout the season (minus the sacks). Yeah thats WAY off the mark right?
Like I said, being on Primetime and televised in front of the WHOLE nation, with NC hopes on the line does play alot in the minds of those that are not used to it. Mental mistakes almost cost the Red Raiders the game, but they did come out ontop. BTW, answer this question was UT an elite team in 2000 or in 2004? Go check out those seasons and you will completely understand why I brought up those particular seasons. I would like your HONEST opinion on that.
As for that one comment about opening admitting that your team did get beat hands down in that game… never once did you state your team did, one excuse after another. That last comment finally showed that YOU admitted to a loss to TT fair and square. As for the secondary, Tech had one of the better. You need to check out yards per completion to totally understand what is talked about, NOT yards per attempt. Even the better secondaries in the Nation had over 10 yards per completion on average. USC is more than likely the best in this category, averaging about 8 yards per completion… completely ridiculous if you ask me.
Tech averaged 11.49 yards per completion, UT averaged 12.22. The best in the BIG 12 was arguably the Buffs at 10.55, followed closely by the Bears at 10.63 and OSU at 10.67. MU was at 10.73 per completion, KU at 11.19, OU at 12.06, TAMU at 12.18, KSU at 12.21, and the worst out of the BIG 12 was NU at 13.67, but not too far behind ISU at 13.28. If one was to go and average ALL the teams in the FBS, the top numbers in the BIG 12 would not be too far of from the rest of the top programs. TT was right in the middle of the pack at these numbers… then you have to factor in INT’s, sacks, and points allowed. TT was only second to OU in INT’s (by 1 and tied for 8th in the Country), TT was 4th in the BIG 12 (behind UT, OU, and NU) for sacking the QB (tied for 9th in the nation), and had the same amount of TD’s allowed against the D as UT (which is below the top 10 in the nation- tied for 13th).
TT seemed to have the better secondary over the Horns, but hey that was last season… this season is coming soon and I for one cannot wait.
WRECK EM TECH
Forgot to add...
the run average for the year was around 5.4 yards per carry (minus the sacks)
Read carefully, my friend
Did I say it was the only TD of the second half? Nope. I said it was the only offensive TD of the second half. You are welcome to check for yourself. It would behoove you to do so before you sound a bit silly.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jul 21, 2009 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Back to you
After I spend my time responding to techtom (and a rather boring meeting at work).
Now, I ask you, why just look at yards per completion? I agree yards per completion comes into play as well, but the reason it is considered less important than yards per attempt because SUCCESS RATE is very important in football. If you regularly throw incomplete passes but nonetheless get a handful of big plays in a game, your yards per completion will be through the roof but your yards per attempt will be mediocre and your completion % and your success rate would suck. And I will ask you the same question I asked techtom: Do you really think Colorado and Baylor had the best secondaries in the conference? Nobody think so. Not even Buffs and Bears fans.
As for 2000 and 2004, I would say 2000 was not an elite team while 2004 was an elite team with a fatal flaw, namely a raw passing game. That flaw lost the OU game and nearly lost a couple others, but the rest of the team was good enough to put together a one-loss season and win the Rose Bowl. I’ve already looked at base statistics for that year in a series of posts on BON.
I wait in vain for people to show where I made excuses. I was merely answering that it is foolhardy just to blame our secondary, because there was plenty of blame to go around. This doesn’t mean Tech doesn’t deserve credit for some things they did that game.
I’ll urge you, too, to read The Boy’s piece on Texas, and I’d like to hear your response to it. If you ask any defensive coach in college football what secondary they’d rather have, you can bet they’d take the Longhorns’.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jul 21, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
better late than never
I don’t believe it’s a “tracked” statistic, but I think the best indicator of secondary is how your opponent does “between the 20s”. The game changes a LOT if you’re off your own goaline or right on the opponent’s goal line. Plus, with the shorter field, the linebackers are more likely to have an impact on the passing game since the receivers have less room to work with. I honestly do not know which team was better in this area, but if anyone can clearly show which team had this area, then that would be a strong argument (IMO).
I think this point is clearly noted by one of Texas’ own over on InsideTexas earlier in the season:
“I’ve said multiple times that the yardage Texas is giving up now will turn into points against tougher competition. I was even quoted on the subject as a "reporter" in an Austin American-Statesman article because of a question I asked defensive coordinator Will Muschamp.
But the performance of the front-seven, be it pressure from the D-line or sure tackling from the linebackers, is causing the offenses the Longhorns are facing, which are prolific between the 20s, to suddenly sputter out in the red zone."
http://insidetexas.com/news/story.php?article=312
As for whose defense was better in the UT/TTU game of last year, the second half is HARDLY a good indicator of that since (for reasons I STILL don’t understand) Mike Leach tightened up and tried to run Shannon Woods way too often until we fell behind. I’d also like to point out that no matter anyone else’s opinion on the matter, this is why I never considered our play-calling in other games to be “running up the score” (unless it’s against some I-AA team), since prior to last year (I’m a big fan of Batch) our RBs haven’t "wow"ed and our ability to “burn clock” has been fairly non-existent. I’ve also never liked the concept of “burning the clock” any time before the 4th quarter, since (as a former Houston resident and now Raider alum) I know it’s entirely possible for a team to throw up 30+ points in the 4th quarter.
I’m confused. Is it your assertion that defensive backs play head-to-head against defensive backs?
by burntorangehorn on Jul 28, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
wow. just. wow.
I’ve seen everything.
A texas fan claims that the 104th ranked pass defense in the nation featured “a very good secondary”. So, why were they getting torched so often? Was it those mean ol’ opposing wide receivers, sneakily tripping your DBs so they couldn’t make the tackles despite their perfect blanket coverage?
You do realize that a ranking of 104 means there were only 15 teams in the nation worse than texas at defending the pass….and none of them were named Texas Tech.
Here too, Beergut?
I expect more from you who clearly follows football with such passion. Refer to my response to you at your site.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jul 19, 2009 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions
This is hilarious
We weren’t elite (though watch out this year), but not one of the worst in the country. Certainly, we had a better one than Texas Tech
Most people would agree that ranking 104th would be considered as “one of the worst in the country.” I don’t know how else you would define that. Also, Tech’s pass defense finished 94th, 10 spots higher that UT’s 104th place finish.
Again, woodenly looking at rankings
Without proper context or consideration of other statistics.
So we have the 104th (or 105th, depending upon where you look) ranked defense according to passing yards per game. Tech? They were 95th. You really want to brag about this? Even if I were to grant your method of evaluating a secondary, and nobody who watches football closely would, this would be like bragging that you’re a centimeter taller than somebody else.
There were certainly some things Texas Tech did better in, most notably interceptions, in which the Texas defense only got six. Credit goes to the Red Raiders for that. However, Texas did better in some other categories. Here are a few:
Opponent completion %: Texas 43rd, Tech 102nd
Opponent yards per attempt: Texas 63rd, Tech 85th
Opponent passer rating: Texas 59th, Tech 72nd
Of course, context always matters as well. Texas was fielding a very young secondary in a very pass happy league. Yet Texas was able to lead the Big 12 in points allowed, and in many blowouts, garbage yards and points were given up (most notably against Missouri, who scored 28 meaningless points in the second half).
Stats don’t mean much without context. In fact, when The Boy of Rock M Nation gave his analysis of the Texas defense, he gave Texas high marks according to his metrics that try to measure efficiency within certain contexts. You can of course quibble with his methodology, but at least he’s attempting to take into consideration the context in which these numbers are coming from. This would be an objective third party, one with no love for Texas (and who lives in Oklahoma), for you to refer to.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jul 19, 2009 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions
if you adjust to how many times Texas faced the pass, we did pretty well matched up to other teams in the league
-—————————————-
OK then, If I adjust to how many times your defense faced the run, does that mean UT’s highly ranked rush defense really wasn’t that good? I mean like you said, a lot of the teams you face passed a lot and didn’t run that often. You can spin things any way you want them, but the fact of the matter is UT had a BAD secondary, as indicated by the 104th ranking. Even UTEP, a 5-7 C-USA team, was able to throw the ball all over your secondary. Just because a team passes the ball a lot doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be able to stop it. Don’t you think if the players were better in the secondary, the pass D would have finished with a higher ranking? Or is there nothing that anyone can do about it the other teams that like to pass the ball?
Texas fans already had this discussion during the season
We didn’t think we had THAT good of a rush defense, although we were pretty good at keeping people mostly under their season averages. We knew we were good but questioned if we were really in the Top 3; obviously such rankings are hard to take at face value in the first place with so many teams in so many different situations. Old news.
As I said above, we did better than Tech on other categories, most importantly, yards per pass, which is often considered one of the more important measurements of a successful pass defense because it keeps opponents from moving the chains.
We had a young secondary, and they sometimes had to have painful, growing-up moments. I can reel off a heck of a lot more examples than you can of our secondary’s mistakes throughout the entire season. However, they did better than expectations coming into the season, and they look to be one of the better secondaries in the country the next couple of years.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jul 19, 2009 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions
What???
As I said above, we did better than Tech on other categories, most importantly, yards per pass, which is often considered one of the more important measurements of a successful pass defense because it keeps opponents from moving the chains./blockquote>
OK, so you did better in yards per pass. Strikingly enough, this did not improve your overall ranking in pass defense. Obviously opponents did have success “moving the chains” as indicated by the 104 ranking, regardless of the yds/attempt. There really is no other way to put this. UT gave up a lot of pass yards per game, no matter how you look at it, and they gave up more per game than Tech did. This yds per attempt and other statistics do not change the avg amount of yards given up per game by the UT pass defense. Who cares if passer efficiency ratings were worse on average against the UT secondary compared to the Tech one? Does that mean UT gave up less passing yards per game? I don’t know what the expectations were coming into the season if finishing 104th OVERALL was better than what was expected.
You're just trying to keep blaring that number
With no discussion of context and other factors. I’m curious, did you bother to read and attempt to analyze The Boy’s numbers linked above? If you disagree with him, do you have specific criticisms against it? It would behoove you to actually deal with arguments rather than belt out the same things over and over again.
Here are the rankings of every Big 12 team, per NCAA.org:
72 CU
89 NU
94 TT
95 A&M
99 OU
103 Baylor
104 UT
106 KSU
109 OSU
114 KU
116 ISU
117 MU
Do you really think that the Big 12 was THAT bad on defense, or was it simply the plethora of pass-happy offenses of the conference? Furthermore, do you really want to assert that Colorado had the best secondary in the conference by a large margin because of these rankings? No knowledgeable football fan would woodenly look at these rankings and make such sweeping conclusions.
This part is very curious:
This yds per attempt and other statistics do not change the avg amount of yards given up per game by the UT pass defense.
Where did I say that it does? Of course it doesn’t. What other statistics do give us is a more overall picture of what’s going on. Advanced statistics used by The Boy attempt to give us statistics within a meaningful context. In 2005, when Texas walloped Tech in Austin, Cody Hodges finished with respectable total yardage in passing. It would be false to say he had a successful day, as he passed for something like 5.8 yards per attempt and many yards came in garbage time. For people obsessed with wooden rankings, they would call that a good day. Anyone who watched the game properly would know that Hodges and the entire Tech offense struggled. That’s just one example of how bland statistics can be misleading.
Again, I will encourage you to read The Boy’s post and also read his brief summary explaining his numbers.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jul 20, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Your missing the point
Garbage time or no garbage time, Tech finished with the better pass defense, statistically. There were also plenty of times when teams picked up passing yards against Tech in garbage time too, so you would have to factor that information into your research before claiming the UT pass D was “certainly better” than the Tech pass D. These “wooden rankings” you speak of are much more prevalent in the minds of “knowledgeable” people than you appear to think. Just about every analyst uses these numbers on a daily basis to make predictions, as well as many publications. If total yards given up is such a useless and misleading statistic, why are people hired to keep track of it? Do these statistics not reveal a team’s strengths and weaknesses? Look, I understand what you’re saying, and I agree that sometimes statistics can be misleading (like the Tech UT game last year), but by looking at statistics as closely as you are, it appears you are grasping at straws to make an argument that your secondary was somehow better than ours when it wasn’t. And yes, I really do think the Big 12 was THAT bad on defense. Bowl season is proof of that, as well as less than stellar performances defensively against much less than stellar competition in non-conference play. Examples of this would include our games against Nevada, and Eastern Washington. Examples of this for UT would be your games against UTEP, and Rice. The final score of these games would indicate otherwise, but the defenses did not play well in these games regardless.
You're missing the point
You’re merely trying to repeat yourself again. We already know the rankings. The question is how well these rankings give us an idea of the secondary play (after all, it’s not like only people in the back four or five play pass defense). Again I will ask you: For somebody so big on statistics, have you read The Boy’s article? What is your take on it? I never said the typical box score statistics are completely useless; however, they can become useless if divorced from context.
but by looking at statistics as closely as you are, it appears you are grasping at straws to make an argument that your secondary was somehow better than ours when it wasn’t.
This is very curious comment. Are you telling football fans to NOT look at stats closely? Again, I didn’t make The Boy’s statistics. His metrics showed Texas to have not only the top passing defense in the conference, but top five in the country. You can of course differ on his methods, but these are the type of discussions football fans SHOULD have, because a great majority of those “analysts” you talk about frustrate CFB fans everywhere with their superficial analysis and bandwagon talk (I myself don’t 100% buy into The Boy’s rankings, because he doesn’t take into account turnovers as much, and Texas only having six interceptions would certainly drop them if he did). Basically, you’re trying to limit the discussion to NCAA rankings, which are not always the most reliable measure (as you pointed out with Texas’ run defense, and also, I’d like you to answer my question about Colorado). Who’s really fishing here?
Bowl season is proof of that, as well as less than stellar performances defensively against much less than stellar competition in non-conference play.
That’s under the assumption that the bowl season can prove so much, which it can’t. I’ll let that go for another discussion, just to point out that you could probably place more blame on Oklahoma’s and Texas’s offenses than defenses in their respective games.
Furthermore, I again question your concept of “good defense.” Against Rice, Jarret Dillard, a legit WR, got his, and Clements had a decent game. They still scored only ten points and were an atrocious 2-14 on third downs (and 2-6 on fourth downs). They averaged 0.7 yards per rush and 6.3 yards per pass. If you think that’s an example of bad defense, I just have no idea what to say to you. For the record, I’m not bragging we thumped Rice; I’m just refuting the techtom’s notion that the defense did not play well against them. I remember that game and I can point out a lot of defensive mistakes, but overall, we blanketed Rice. UTEP’s numbers look much better, but in their run game and not passing game, which looks worse than Rice. Our defense had mishaps in the first half but came through to deliver a shutout in the second half. Perfect defense? Heck no, and at the second game of the season, I guarantee you that many Longhorn fans were peeved we allowed 4.7 yards per carry to UTEP. Bad defense? I always look for improvement, but I’d typically take giving up only 13 points in a game with a second half shutout. Losing that kind of game would mean our offense ultimately fouled up, not our D.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jul 21, 2009 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions
just wanted to comment on this one thing you said
I really do think the Big 12 was THAT bad on defense. Bowl season is proof of that
I think using bowl season as a metric for defense is a very poor idea, simply b/c of the time difference involved. Think about it, during the season you have one week to get ready for an opposing defense, during the post-season, you usually have a month. After a month to study a defense, don’t you think you could find enough holes to put together an impressive game plan?
Well
That only further proves my point. Teams do have more time to prepare and should be able to come up with a good gameplan but still weren’t able to for the most part.
This will probably mean nothing to you
But here are the common Big 12 opponents that Texas and Texas Tech faced in 2008 along with the total passing yards they allowed for each game"
Texas Tech Texas
Opponent: Oklahoma 326 387
Oklahoma State 182 199
Baylor 91 71
Kansas 154 258
Texas A&M 286 269
ALL 1039 1184
AVG 207.8 236.8
-————————————————————————————————
So, there you have it. Against the same 5 conference opponents, the Texas Tech secondary allowed an average of about 30 less yards per game compared to the UT secondary.
I'm glad we're progressing here
And looking at common opponents. But again, context matters.
For example, while even Texas’ fans were skeptical we had an invincible run defense, we knew we still had a darn good one, and with Texas snuffing the run against the majority of teams on the schedule, teams obviously simply took to the air. Contrast that to Texas Tech. The best example of this would be Oklahoma, who abandoned the run game when it didn’t work and simply let Bradford loose on our young secondary. Against Tech, OU ran over twice as many times and averaged 5.4 yards per carry, compared to their paltry 1.8 against Texas. Obviously, seeing that kind of success will dictate playcalling, and Bradford still threw for over 300 yards and tossed 4 TDs.
Furthermore, why just total yardage? Why not points against? Why not opponent passer rating? Why not yards per attempt? Why not success rates on third down passing situations, as The Boy tries to measure? Bradford only had to throw 19 times to get to 304 yards, an astonishing 16 yards per attempt. He had a stinking good game against us too, but to get to his yardage, he threw 39 times, for 9.9 yards per attempt.
To add to your final number, why not include this?
Texas gave up: 113/211, 53.6%, 5.6 ypa
TT gave up: 88/134, 65.7%, 7.75 ypa
So against these common opponents, Texas held them TEN percentage points lower on comp% and over two yards less per attempt. If I’m evaluating a defense, if I see that a team has to work that much harder to put up thirty more yards, I know who has the superior defense. You will also find our opponent passer rating down as well.
Does this automatically prove Texas has the better secondary? No, it doesn’t; we had a stellar pass rush that helped out, and one thing TT did do better was get interceptions. But if we really want to evaluate a secondary and a pass defense meaningfully, we have to do more than just look up NCAA rankings and/or total yardage. Football is way deeper than that.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jul 21, 2009 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Herein lies the dilemma we face
Don’t get me wrong, the completion % and YPA are credible stats to bring up, but those two things alone don’t prove a defense to be superior. If anything, this argument is a wash, in that neither secondary performed that great throughout the entire season (both had their moments, though). Looking at the rankings or looking at these stats the way The Boy does still does not prove one defense to be better than the other. All those things about completion % and YPA may be going in UT’s favor, but like you said, Tech had more INT’s and gave up less total yardage. Does this make Tech the better secondary? In a way, yes, but also no because of the higher competion % and what not that UT was better at. But despite these very specific stats The Boy factors in to his evaluation, the UT secondary cannot be claimed to be far superior to the Tech one from these alone. Like you said, there are too many other factors (pass rush, INT’s, etc). For a somewhat realistic example, what would be the better defensive performance, allowing an opposing QB go 32/56, 330 yds, 3 TD’s, 1 INT, or allowing him to go 25/38, 294 yds, 3 TD’s, 2 INT. Even though the second hypothetic performance brought up allowed a higher completion % and YPA, it would be hard to argue that it wasn’t a better performance because of the extra interception and lower yardage total. But at the same time, this same hypothetic stat line also faced less attempts, just like Tech did in the common opponents example.
If we are in agreement that those bare rankings don't prove Tech's superiority
Then that is enough. I just had a big problem with this notion that belting out NCAA rankings was the end-all, be-all of the conversation, when it surely is not.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jul 21, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, kind of
I agree with that notion, but at the same time it cannot be said that UT was superior simply because of the YPA and Completion %. Like I said, after looking through all of this, neither secondary was great, and all things considered, one was not significantly better overall than the other.
After all
here was your original claim:
We weren’t elite (though watch out this year), but not one of the worst in the country. Certainly, we had a better one than Texas Tech./blockquote>
And it was your claim
you said you had a better secondary, well apparently you do not since you lost that game because Harrell was able to torch your secondary
and
Most people would agree that ranking 104th would be considered as "one of the worst in the country." I don’t know how else you would define that. Also, Tech’s pass defense finished 94th, 10 spots higher that UT’s 104th place finish.
In my view, if you take in the totality of the factors, we had a better secondary than Tech, and I find it hard to imagine any defensive coach choosing Tech’s players over Texas’ if they had a choice. If you disagree, that’s fine and it’s certainly expected you’d stand by your own team. What I was primarily refuting was this notion that simply stating NCAA rankings and pointing to one game was a good way to determine the issue.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jul 22, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions
“I find it hard to imagine any defensive coach choosing Tech’s players over Texas’ " Now that’s the type of Texas fan comment I am used to.
I remember in law school, a UT student actually referred to Tech as recruiting the “scraps” Texas leaves for them. And we were having a “friendly” conversation over a nice smoke. Even if it’s true, there are better ways of saying it.
I'm not sure what is so offensive about what I said
Because of Crabtree, a good deal of coaches would probably take your receiving corps. last year over ours, although we had a good one too. But in the secondary, we had more talent and in terms of defensive efficiency, we performed better than Tech. In that regard, I think a coach would choose UT’s secondary over Tech’s.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jul 24, 2009 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions
I dont' know,
Darcel McBath was drafted in the 3rd round and Daniel Charbonnet was an all-conference performer. Wall was pretty good. I think it’s not an easy, and if I had my choice, I’d probably choose Texas Tech because of the experience factor with two senior safeties, a junior CB in Wall who was pretty solid and another fill-in CB. UT had an awfully good rush to help their pass defense that I think helped out a ton. I think you could just as easily say that a coach would chose TT’s secondary over UT’s.
To say that no coach would choose TT players over UT players does sound a bit smug and I think if we go by what the coaches thought in 2008, they choose both McBath (1st team) and Charbonnet (2nd team) to Palmer (2nd team) then perhaps that’s not an accurate statement. If you mean as a whole, then as stated above, there’s an argument that I think could go either way as UT’s secondary certainly has talent, there’s no denying that.
Go Raiders . . .
Double-T Nation
Exactly. You don’t understand how that statement could be offensive. That speaks volumes. Don’t get me wrong Elusive, you are a gentleman on our board and you keep it civil, and maybe after 38 years, I’m a little sensitive, so welcome to DTN, I’ll be here win or lose after the Tech/UT matchup to rehash it.
I guess I don't understand
Because I would willingly admit that despite the brilliance of the Cosby-Shipley duo, Crabtree and the rest of the solid Tech receivers gave Tech the superior WR corps last season (I think this season will be different, but that’s another discussioN). Obviously, I’m not saying that we had a better secondary just because I’m a Longhorns fan; I think an objective analysis of the data and of the talent level lends to this conclusion, just as an objective analysis gives the edge to Tech at WR
Of course, I guess none of this matters now. A new season is right around the corner.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jul 27, 2009 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Ignore it
Just ignore the aggie troll. It’s not worth responding to him. Let’s encapsulate him inside a wall of indifference. Txt3ch6uy, no defense of your position is necessary. As long as the aggie makes inflamatory remarks such as “I didn’t think much of your secondary last season….”, which are designed to elicit a negative response we should ignore him.
by raiderross on Jul 14, 2009 8:34 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
ummm...
you might want to recheck those stats AGG…. your beloved TAMU finished 94th, TT finished 92nd. BTW, the best secondary out in the BIG 12 was CU and they finished 73rd, NU came in at 91st (2nd in the BIG 12), TT came in 3rd in the conference. Where did UT and OU finish?? UT at 107, OU at 112. Both their secondaries were close to the bottom of the conference along towards the bottom of the nation… yet they still pulled off 10+ wins. Everyone in the nation (that watches CF) understands that when teams play in the BIG 12, there are going to be tons of yardage in the air. The way the Red Raiders, Sooners, and Horns were able to keep that mentality of bend but dont break method. It worked out well enough to go 11-2, 12-2, and 12-1… all respectable records.
As for the Run D (these rankings are off yards per carry)… UT gave up 883 yards off of 317 attempts, averaging 2.8 yards per carry putting them at the top of the BIG 12 tying 3rd overall in the nation; OU 1378 off 425 for 3.2 ypc putting them at 2nd in the Conf. and tying for 7th in the nation; TT had 1602 off 412 for 3.9 ypc tying for 14th in the nation and tying for 4th in the conference. Overall though UT had the 50th best defense in the nation, OU had the 65th best, NU had the 66th best, and TT had the 72nd best (off of yardage allowed); UT tied for 19th best, OU had the 47th best, TT 58th best, NU had the 72nd best in the nation (off points allowed).
Agg… you dont have to be impressed by anything that the Red Raiders do if you choose not too. Its a free country, do what you will. What you should be more worried about, is your Texas A&M team doing something this season other than just beating Baylor, KSU, or ISU. You need to start wondering if the Aggs will be able to do something against teams such as UNM, Utah St, or Arkansas this coming season… how about show some motivation in hoping the Aggs dont drop another home opener this coming season. A&M has all this talent and has yet shown that they can do a damn thing with it. They should be competing year in, year out for the BIG 12 south title… but just cant seem to get their heads out of their asses. So how about cease with all this bashing of a fellow BIG 12 team and show some support for your own?
All this talk about Texas Tech doesnt impress me… blah, blah, blah… Yet Tech has pretty much owned A&M since the inception of the BIG 12, having a 10-3 record against the team from College Station with losses only in CS, with only one of those wins coming by double digits. Common stop with all this nonsense… until that team of yours starts producing with the talent that comes in and out of College Station, you should learn to just take things how they come.
WRECK EM TECH!!!
+1
rofl
"56,000 screaming crazies in The Jones rockin' as it has never rocked before" - Terry Bowden
If you not having fun....then your not playing the game right.
Not impressed with us?
But he must have been impressed by the mighty Red Wolves of Arkansas State who whipped them at Kyle Field last year. Oh well, 4-8 and last place isn’t so bad. Maybe this year they can keep Baylor from winning by 20. Then again, maybe not.
Division II-A is looking better all the time. Do they let you play army in that division?
Hey ... Easy on Army!
Just kidding … we are pretty bad but we never give up!

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