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Around SBN: VIDEO: Austin Rivers' Buzzer Beater Finishes Off UNC

How big a deal is it?

 

Let me start off by saying this is not a “Chicken Little” post.  I think the coach is handling the fallout from the game in Houston as he sees fit with hopes an amiable resolution will present itself.  But’ I’d like to see some opinions concerning the potential damage to talent acquisition.  Here’s a comment from deep in another fanpost:

 

Consistent, stable, competent coaches and an attentive, effective support system let parents feel comfortable guiding their high schooler to a particular high energy, high profile, winning program.  When senior captains are suspended indefinitely, that’s a warning sign to parents.

 

I presume we agree with that statement.  If not, what’s wrong with it?  Are these instances harmful to recruiting?  If it’s not resolved or gets uglier, how could/should Coach address the concerns?  If it’s resolved amicably, is there risk of damage during off season when parties may start talking?  What would you say to a parent if you were sitting in their living room and the parent brought this up?



This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Double-T Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Double-T Nation's writers or editors.

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I think every team goes through things like this. The reality is the only people who are concerned with this instance are Tech fans, coaches and players. I seriously doubt the suspensions/actions have a negative effect on parents…if anything, I think they appreciate the fact the coach, right or wrong, is willing to put anyone on the bench for breaking a rule.

by Tech92 on Sep 30, 2009 9:55 AM CDT reply actions  

my take is different

If I’m a parent about to shuffle my son off to college on scholarship, I want a coach who demands accountability of his players no matter what their status or ability. Also, a 79% graduation rate certainly would sound better than 50% knowing that my son has a 0.001% chance (or whatever) of making his career and getting rich in the NFL.
I shudder to think of all the “issues” that were swept under the rug at other schools just so they could keep their players in the starting lineup. Not at Tech. Leach wouldn’t care – if Crabtree had broken team rules he would have sat him the same as Carter or any other player. I would respect that special treatment is not given to any player, and that the rules are enforced. I certainly would feel more comfortable being in this type of environment versus one that is “high energy, high profile, and winning.” Sure I want to be successful, but not at any cost.

by rpowel2 on Sep 30, 2009 10:16 AM CDT reply actions  

That's why I love Mike Leach

sometimes his antics and playcalling can drive me insane, but he is a man who does things the right way and with great integrity. In a world where the only thing coaches care about is winning, I think it is great to have a guy who views every single player the same way and would not hesitate to bench anyone for acting stupid or doing things they shouldn’t be.

by techtom4 on Sep 30, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

But the truth would be interesting to know

If I’m BCarter, in my senior year with a chance of pursuing a lucrative career, I think I would be talking with Coach to craft an elegant yet contrite exit strategy out of this pickle.

If I’m Coach Leach, wanting more Red Raiders on NFL rosters and showing parents I can guide young men into mature behavior, I think I have to backtrack on some of the negative statements (labeled narcissist for being on social networks casts a net over many a high schooler) and agree emotions were running strong on both sides after a painful loss.

Coach’s news conference (no BC present): "Emotions are good in football yadda, yadda ….but emotions have to be channeled properly….yadda, yadda and teams have to solve these problems internally. BC has made amends to the team to my satisfaction." Result: One game suspension.

Peace and Health
Tech'79 Living Among the Terracotta Crowd
Mezo

by Mezo on Sep 30, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's why Brandon Carter has leadership, because he will do whatever is needed...

" Answers -- Become Resources."
Without Questions; There are limited Resources...

by KWashburn on Sep 30, 2009 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great post

Who wants to be USC or even UT? There is a reason M. Brown has coach on the payroll who monitors ethical behavior of the players. As stated by many right here I’m very happy to be Raider. That means following the rules. Benching a guy for breaking the rules is a leadership call. You can bet the egregious behavior was just that. Whatever B. Carter did was so beyond the pale he had to be made an example of. The Lubbock campus can’t be haven for rehab cases, thugs, non- students or semi pro athletes. Otherwise we lose one of the things most valued by us Alum’s, fans, parents and educators: credibility.

"do routine things routinely"

by centexraider on Sep 30, 2009 10:29 AM CDT reply actions  

I'd worry if it were more players

If there were multiple captains suspended or a whole core of people suspended, I think the red flags should go up then. How many other schools have reprimanded a star player and it’s really been a detriment to their entire program? Accountability is a good thing and it should be followed up more. Honestly, if Mack Brown had the same fortitude as Leach, Kindle would not have been playing in one or more games this year for his ‘texting’ incident which caused him to run over one of those pesky apartment buildings. I hate how those complexes are always darting out in front of you at night while you’re trying to drive down the center of your lane. I guess they’re trying to get to the other side of the road so they can be with the other buildings…

Oops, I digressed there for a second. Anyways, one player suspended does not break a program. If it does, then the parents are a little too picky and good luck sending your kid off to that college that will let him/her get away with anything just for a win.

by theta12 on Sep 30, 2009 11:16 AM CDT reply actions  

You could argue it's a big deal for the positive...

It pretty much tells a parent that Leach stands for something more than just what happens on the football field. That may be a differientiating factor to a parent who’s concerned about their child’s overall situation and experience.
I think one of the biggest risks of negative fallout from this current situation is that a bunch of people (and the media), without the real facts of the situation, start grumbling and complaining and turning it into a big deal.

by Houston Raider on Sep 30, 2009 11:41 AM CDT reply actions  

Compare this to:

What Brown at TU did to kindle for his late night drive.

What do you think Leach would have done to him. I for one as a parent love the fact that he treats these kids as like this. IE. The mid winter studying from mid field.

If you not having fun....then your not playing the game right.

by texastfan on Sep 30, 2009 11:59 AM CDT reply actions  

The only negative for me was how Leach acted in front of the press. Instead of following his strict policy of not discussing such things, he went on a mini-rant about narcissistic players and then said Carter’s loss wouldn’t hurt the O-line at all. Suspending my kid for breaking the rules is one thing, but making personal attacks on his character in the national media is a whole ‘nother ballgame. In addition to being inappropriate, remarks like that could cost an NFL hopeful millions of dollars (see Crabtree). And saying a pre-season All-American senior Captain won’t be missed at all is just another personal diss, not to mention an outright lie.
 
For the money he’s being paid, Leach ought to know that matters such as these are circumstances where his usual ‘cuteness’ should be put aside.

by TechFirst on Sep 30, 2009 12:05 PM CDT reply actions  

Good points on the interesting behavior of Capt. Leach.

by Tech92 on Sep 30, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Are you saying Leach made remarks that cost Crabtree millions of dollars? What?

Otherwise, I agree with the main message of your post – I also would have preferred for Leach to just say no comment or that it was an internal matter.
But having said that, I imagine what Leach is not saying about the BC matter could cost the kid a lot more than being dissed by the coach stating that he won’t be missed.

by Houston Raider on Sep 30, 2009 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not Leach

What I meant about Crab were the post-season statements made by some NFL coach(es) that he acted like a diva and had his cat cocked, etc at the combine or at meetings, etc. As silly as they were, these statements got into the national media and swirled around until they were everywhere. This ‘diva’ attitude was often cited as the reason Crab’s draft number dropped, thus costing him millions.

I never intended to imply Leach said any of these things about Crab (quite the contrary). But having just seen how even statements from strangers can hurt a player’s future, Leach should have been acutely aware of how much damage a player’s own coach could do by attacking the player’s character and value. Leach’s stock definitely dropped in my book over his mishandling of this situation. I can’t imagine a potential recruit or his parents being glad to see this.

by TechFirst on Sep 30, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

I kinda like the move...

Capt Leach has been pretty consistent about Football related info stays in-house as a team policy. So what it really boils down to is Carter broke team rules so there are consequences. And I am sure most (if not all) of you are the same within your family.

Bottomline is he is teaching Carter and the rest of the players that there are consequences to your actions. It’s a valuable lesson they should feel lucky to learn.

I think that combined with the graduation rates and other positive aspects of the program would make a parent feel good about having their kid play for Tech.

by imisswesttexas on Sep 30, 2009 12:48 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Are parents concerned that their future team captain will get suspended?

Sufficiently concerned that they will discourage their child from attending a University? To what extent does it matter to the kid? Wouldn’t that be on a case by case basis? Do any families besides 5 star recruits — and even them? — have any expectation or interest in their kids becoming team captains?

Even scary answers to all the above questions are counteracted by things like: Do you want your kid to attend a University where players are treated equally, regardless of how good they are? Favoritism is not something that Mike Leach is often accused of. Lots of starters have had the hammer slammed on them as harshly as role players or bench players.

Texas Tech is a meritocracy. That is a selling point.

Go register. Or else.

by Skin Patrol on Sep 30, 2009 3:48 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

But if you cross the coach, he will slander your character to the national media

Pardon me for repeating myself, but that part is NOT a selling point to parents. It may very well offset the graduation rate and the discipline aspects. As Mezo pointed out above, Leach needs to do some repair work to better serve himself, the players involved, and the university. Just MO.

by TechFirst on Sep 30, 2009 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

He suspended him and then pointed out that it was an internal issue when the press (predictably) asked for the gory details

could you please point to the Leach quote that “slanders” Carter’s character in the media? I am a fan of Pirate Lead’s running policy of keeping details of team affairs in-house, so if he’s broken with this policy in a hypocritical fashion I’d be extremely interested to know.

by mojavereject on Sep 30, 2009 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Slander?

I feel like I’m reasonably informed of everything that’s been said. When did Mike Leach slander any of his players? Has that ever happened at any point in his coaching career? Examples, please.

Being disciplined is not the same thing as being wronged. I’m not the kind of person to fully understand that. The kinds of people who do (PARENTS) also happen to be the ones that we’re worried will be turned off my Leach’s behavior.

Go register. Or else.

by Skin Patrol on Sep 30, 2009 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

As posted above

Leach went into a little rant about how some players are narcissistic and joked about putting mirrors on their lockers so they could admire themselves more. When asked if Carter’s loss would hurt the team, he said not at all.

I have no problem with suspending any player who breaks the rules, but to state or heavily imply that my son was a narcissist who the team could do just as well without is clearly out of line. Sure he kept the details of the infraction quiet, but why did he have to slander my son’s character and minimize his value to the team?

Offhand remarks like these could cost my son millions in the NFL draft and could arguably expose the coach and the university to litigation. We pay Leach millions of dollars and we should expect him to control his mouth and his ego when it comes to making disparaging remarks about the players he is disciplining.

by TechFirst on Sep 30, 2009 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

So Carter is your kid?

by Tech92 on Sep 30, 2009 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

THE SUSPENSION HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH TWITTER OR FACEBOOK

If you pay attention to the timeline, Carter announced his suspension on twitter. The “twittergate” that followed had nothing to do with the initial suspension.

Leach’s comments were an answer to a question about how he felt about the social networking sites.

For one thing, I agree. People who update their statuses so they can tell everyone what they’re thinking/doing eight times a day want attention. As a content delivery method, I think they’re great (posting links, stories, etc). But I really get tired of reading “working out, eating, sleepy, hungry” every single day by some people. I’m not even gonna go into how I feel about bad-mouthing people and status-message wars on those things.

by djollie111 on Sep 30, 2009 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

O I couldn't agree more

I hate Twitter and am depressed by how obsessed everyone is with it.

by techtom4 on Oct 1, 2009 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

This

I'm not worthy. Really.

by Campeador on Oct 1, 2009 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Leach is a lawyer

I don’t think he’s too worried about a libel case where what he says “could end up costing my son millions.” Good luck proving that in a court of law. I love that Leach will sit your a$$ whether you’re a walk on or a star. You shouldn’t be treated special because you MAY make it in the NFL, you have 4.3 speed, or you have great hands.

None of what he said about the “narcissism” of the players directly correlated to the suspended player. It’s easy to make that association seeing how much Carter paints himself up, but Leach never said who he was referring to in this case.

by rpowel2 on Oct 1, 2009 8:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

Re:

A coach calling kids narcissistic is too much for their egos? If you’ve ever attended a football practice in your life, you know that coaches routinely say far worse things to the kids, in loud, shouting voices. Your attitude strikes me as paternalistic. Calling a kid a narcissist (by the way… which kid?) is not a slanderous statement. Slander would be saying: “That kid raped a girl.” When in fact he did not rape a girl. Narcissism is a statement of opinion, probably well founded.

I have no problem with suspending any player who breaks the rules, but to state or heavily imply that my son was a narcissist who the team could do just as well without is clearly out of line.

It can’t be the case that stating that a player is not needed is somehow off limits; were that the case, CUTTING players would be off limits. I suppose what Mike Leach could have said was: “We’re totally and completely fucked without Brandon Carter.” To which one might respond: “That’s not going to bring the recruits in, either.”

To recap: 1) You’re using the word “Slander” incorrectly here. 2) “Clearly” out of line? Ok, well I guess we clearly disagree. 3) Leach’s remarks will not cost the coach or the University a penny. There is no actionable conduct here.

A group of us here do not think Carter is worse off for Leach’s statements, we happen to believe that discipline means something, and Leach’s comments were well within the normal limits of a coach sending a firm message to one of his players. Here is a representative example of how coaches treat their players, typically:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmAYpAzNB34

OMGOOSE SLANDER???? It’s like you and I aren’t even fans of the same sport.

Go register. Or else.

by Skin Patrol on Oct 1, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hold on there

The topic of this thread, or so I thought, was how potential recruits and their parents would view this week’s events. My remarks were limited to that narrow perspective, not about the character of football players in general or anything else.

The uniform application of discipline is a positive. But if you honestly believe that parents would get excited about a coach who gets in front of a TV camera and cavalierly besmirches the character of his players (directly or by inference) or minimizes their value to the team, then we must be from different planets. Chewing out a player or sending him a message is one thing; doing it in the press is something else entirely. That’s my opinion and I decline to argue about it.

I appreciate all the legal opinions. I will weigh them against my 30+ years of actual practice.

by TechFirst on Oct 1, 2009 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

You can't send messages to a player through the press?

Is that not an effective method of getting their attention?

But don’t argue about it, you’ve got three decades of legal experience. Bla bla bla.

Go register. Or else.

by Skin Patrol on Oct 1, 2009 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think parents agree with Leach

that kids these days have big egos, and that twitter is just an attention-seeking waste of time. I don’t know any that think their kids DON’T spend too much time on their phones and computers.

Oh, and that’s my opinion, I don’t care to argue about it.

by djollie111 on Oct 1, 2009 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hold on, your opinion is that one thing is entirely different from another thing

and you’re worried that people are going to argue about it? Those 30 years of law must have warped your perspective on what the unwashed masses are inclined to have differences about.

Amateur legal opinions notwithstanding, Leach did not single any one player out, and he didn’t even necessarily imply that any members of the team were narcissists. What he DID say was that he felt college football players get plenty of attention as-is, and if that’s not enough for any Tech player now that they can’t instantly tweet their casual thoughts to the ESPN’s Twitter intern, then he’s got an army of graduate assistants to give them all the attention they require. No doubt a lawyer with 30+years of practice can recognize a basic conditional statement (and hopefully the attempt at humor), so I’m not going to put too fine a point on it. Leach didn’t besmirch anyone’s character, and he certainly didn’t do so in a cavalier fashion.

by mojavereject on Oct 1, 2009 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Keeping the egos in check

As a parent, I would want my child to be coached under Leach and his staff. Too many kids today think it is all about them.
Brandon will be better for this disciplinary action by Leach, just you wait and see

by Hooteewho on Sep 30, 2009 6:04 PM CDT reply actions  

Leach has been one of the more amusing coaches in football over the years. But, he has also been very consistent with his ‘behavior training’. Star power does not enter into the equation when he is dealing with any team member. He has displayed that in the past and will continue to do so. Now, he is not always perfect in his statements, but the discipline never wavers. The players get this and understand the consequences because he has made it very clear to them. There are some coaches who do not adhere to this level of disciplinary action when a key player is involved, unless the issue is unavoidable because the NCAA has become involved. Leach never, on purpose, tries to avoid confrontation and discipline when needed. I applaud him for his action, even if all the right things may not have been said. How the team reacts and plays this weekend will be a guiding light int0 the whole situation. I think the players are fine and are willing to move on to make this another season to remember, for all the good things.

TTpilk

by TTpilk645 on Sep 30, 2009 6:41 PM CDT reply actions  

Accountability...

… you see more of this word in the news everyday. I, for one, am very glad. This episode involving Brandon Carter SHOULD make Raider fans and players proud and even more confident in Coach Leach, in my opinion. Obviously there is MUCH that we do not know, and will never know ( positive point #1). Discipline one of your captains? You bet, IF he broke team rules and could not somehow make amends. Fail to do so and you send a message to the rest of the team: SOME folks are above the rules. Not so with Captain Leach. Same rules for everyone. (positive point #2). Next, minimize the expected effect that the suspension might have on the TEAM, as they prepare to move forward without a great player: indicate that his presence will not be missed. Message to team: there are several good players waiting their chance to fill someone’s shoes and become the next Brandon Carter. “I’m not worried about 1 player when I have a whole team to worry about.” (positive point #3).

Leach would not have done Brandon any favors if he had swept his unacceptable behavior under the rug. OTHER Big 12 teams do that. As far as any comments that Leach might make about his players – and tying that to costing them money – VERY shortsighted! Leach has the responsibility to be accountable to every member of the football family – coaches, players, administration, even to a lesser extent, fans. In his position of authority and ACCOUNTABILITY, he has no choice but to clearly draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable behavior. I have NO DOUBT that Brandon knew that when he crossed the line. Leach may very well contribute to the successful NFL career of Carter by simply holding him accountable for his actions. Every potential employer in the NFL values maturity, including accounability and being willing to follow the rules. Leach may have just MADE Brandon Carter millions of dollars by making him live with the consequences of his actions. Leach was willing to make a small sacrifice of losing Brandon’s considerable talent, rather than lose a significant amount of respect and loyalty from the rest of the team. Regardless of how fans feel about it ( and I am really very disappointed that Brandon’s future is uncertain!) this was the right thing to do.

by natsnagrom on Sep 30, 2009 7:35 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

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